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Author Topic:   R.C.Sprouls Teaching On Reformed Theology
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 106 of 137 (825687)
12-17-2017 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Phat
12-17-2017 10:01 AM


Re: Is God Always Created By Humans? Implications....
Phat writes:

I can admit that humans likely make god out to be what they want Him to be and see Him as....but what bothers me about what you say is the total lack of belief that God actually exists and interacts with us.

Stop right there.

What I have said is I cannot think of anyway to determine if someone is communicating with a God.

I have never said that people cannot believe that God actually exists and interacts with them but no one has ever been able to explain how that is done.

The facts though are as I posted and you quoted.

jar writes:

The God character in the Bible is yet another example of contradictions and evolution found throughout the Bible.

The newer God found in Genesis 1 is characterized entirely differently than the much older God found in Genesis 2&3.

In the older stories the Hebrew God is but one of many Gods and in fact tied to a particular piece of real estate. That is why Namaan asked for two donkey loads of dirt from Israel.

In the New Testament God becomes an off stage voice, a classic Greek Chorus or Mira.

Each Bible story writer created the God that was appropriate to the story being told and the era and milieu they lived within.

Phat writes:

So are you basically saying that in all instances, humans created God?

How can it be otherwise?

Just as with past authors, people today can only describe the God character they imagine exists.

AbE:

Look at the Biblical evidence.

In Genesis 1 as well as Genesis 2&3 the God character is known only by his behavior, and the behavior of the two Gods is diametrically opposed.

In other parts God is an off stage voice, a burning bush, a hand writing on the wall, an unknown stranger met unexpectedly. Even the actual name of God is not spoken. In the New Testament the God is more like the God of Genesis 1 than the God of any of the other Old Testament books; but still simply an offstage voice or the sender of messengers or testers.

You are pretty much inline with all those past authors and facing much the same challenges.

Edited by jar, : see AbE


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Phat, posted 12-17-2017 10:01 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15567
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 107 of 137 (825729)
12-17-2017 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Phat
12-17-2017 10:01 AM


Re: Is God Always Created By Humans? Implications....
Phat writes:

And if we were to honestly confront the storytellers of each era (through our magic time machine) and ask them to honestly admit that they were creating God, they would likely deny such an assertion...


If they were honest, they would at the very least have to acknowledge that they were embellishing. Otherwise, how do you account for the discrepancies?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Phat, posted 12-17-2017 10:01 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Phat, posted 12-17-2017 2:29 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11403
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 108 of 137 (825741)
12-17-2017 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by ringo
12-17-2017 2:01 PM


Re: Is God Always Created By Humans? Implications....
ringo writes:

If they were honest, they would at the very least have to acknowledge that they were embellishing.

Hmmm.
Embellish
make (a statement or story) more interesting or entertaining by adding extra details, especially ones that are not true.
"she had real difficulty telling the truth because she liked to embellish things"
synonyms: elaborate, embroider, expand on, exaggerate
"the legend was embellished in later retellings"

I would argue that they would say they were elaborating...and were sticking to the truth as they understood it. Perhaps exaggeration would be inevitable, but they would likely defend their integrity. For examle, jar and I disagree on the character of GOD. jar says GOD is complete. I say GOD is good. GODmay well have created the possibility of evil, but this fact alone does not make GOD evil.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by ringo, posted 12-17-2017 2:01 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by ringo, posted 12-17-2017 2:39 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15567
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 109 of 137 (825747)
12-17-2017 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Phat
12-17-2017 2:29 PM


Re: Is God Always Created By Humans? Implications....
Phat writes:

I would argue that they would say they were elaborating...and were sticking to the truth as they understood it. Perhaps exaggeration would be inevitable, but they would likely defend their integrity.


How do you account for the discrepancies?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Phat, posted 12-17-2017 2:29 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Phat, posted 12-18-2017 10:52 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11403
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 110 of 137 (825833)
12-18-2017 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by ringo
12-17-2017 2:39 PM


Re: Is God Always Created By Humans? Implications....
How do you account for the discrepancies?
Human nature. Incorrect information. Perhaps even cultural bias.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by ringo, posted 12-17-2017 2:39 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by ringo, posted 12-18-2017 10:58 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15567
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 111 of 137 (825837)
12-18-2017 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Phat
12-18-2017 10:52 AM


Re: Is God Always Created By Humans? Implications....
Phat writes:

Human nature. Incorrect information. Perhaps even cultural bias.


So, in other words, there's no reason to think they knew what they were talking about, even if they BELIEVED they were telling The Truth™.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Phat, posted 12-18-2017 10:52 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Phat, posted 12-18-2017 11:39 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11403
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 112 of 137 (825846)
12-18-2017 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by ringo
12-18-2017 10:58 AM


Re: Is God Always Created By Humans? Implications....
It starts with belief. Not with evidence. Thats why you never became a believer. You started with evidence.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by ringo, posted 12-18-2017 10:58 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by ringo, posted 12-18-2017 11:46 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15567
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 113 of 137 (825847)
12-18-2017 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Phat
12-18-2017 11:39 AM


Re: Is God Always Created By Humans? Implications....
Phat writes:

It starts with belief. Not with evidence. Thats why you never became a believer. You started with evidence.


What about when the evidence goes against the belief?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Phat, posted 12-18-2017 11:39 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11403
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 114 of 137 (828054)
02-08-2018 4:17 PM


The Calvinists vs Joel Osteen
It seems that Joel Osteen and his popular brand of positive affirmations goes directly against the traditional beliefs of the late Dr.Sproul and his contemporaries. One of the speakers whom I have respected is Ravi Zacharias. Here he eloquently points out the deficiencies in Osteen's message:

A generation of people who deny Jesus Christ as the only way to God....sounds a bit like our do your best arguments here at EvC where we place the responsibility of being a good and honest person and doing your best above the traditional message regarding Christ.

Edited by Phat, : spelling


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by jar, posted 02-08-2018 4:36 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 116 by ringo, posted 02-09-2018 11:39 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 115 of 137 (828056)
02-08-2018 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Phat
02-08-2018 4:17 PM


Re: The Calvinists vs Joel Osteen
Phat writes:

A generation of people who deny Jesus Christ as the only way to God....sounds a bit like our do your best arguments here at EvC where we place the responsibility of being a good and honest person and doing your best above the traditional message regarding Christ.

And what is the traditional message regarding Christ?

Phat, there is no one traditional message regarding Christ; rather there are a host of interpretations held by each Chapter of Club Christian.

Or perhaps you mean traditional as what you want it to mean or what your Chapter of Club Christian wants it to mean?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Phat, posted 02-08-2018 4:17 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15567
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 116 of 137 (828068)
02-09-2018 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Phat
02-08-2018 4:17 PM


Re: The Calvinists vs Joel Osteen
Phat writes:

... the traditional message regarding Christ.


The "traditional message" was as much about politics as it was about religion. The Church had a vested interest in a stable society, so "the responsibility of being a good and honest person and doing your best " was a message that made sense for them. It also gave the civil authorities an incentive to support the Church.

The Church told people they'd go to Hell if they weren't good citizens. Today we can see that being good citizens can have a good effect here on earth.

The outcome is the same. We're just being good for our own sake instead of for the Church's sake and the government's sake.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Phat, posted 02-08-2018 4:17 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Phat, posted 02-09-2018 12:30 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11403
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 117 of 137 (828077)
02-09-2018 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by ringo
02-09-2018 11:39 AM


Re: The Calvinists vs Joel Osteen
ringo writes:

The Church told people they'd go to Hell if they weren't good citizens. Today we can see that being good citizens can have a good effect here on earth.

The outcome is the same. We're just being good for our own sake instead of for the Church's sake and the government's sake.

But what is the definition of a global consensus?

Some would argue that a global consensus must involve answering the question that jesus asked peter: Who Do Men say tham I am? (...) Who do you say that I am?

Others would argue that the only consensus that is important is being good for our own sake.

Still others are always looking. Searching to solve the mystery.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by ringo, posted 02-09-2018 11:39 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by ringo, posted 02-10-2018 11:25 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15567
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 118 of 137 (828108)
02-10-2018 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Phat
02-09-2018 12:30 PM


Re: The Calvinists vs Joel Osteen
Phat writes:

But what is the definition of a global consensus?


I can give you an example: There's a global consensus that killing people is a bad thing. Remember that consensus doesn't require unanimity; there may be dissenters.

But who said anything about a global consensus?


An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Phat, posted 02-09-2018 12:30 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Phat, posted 08-29-2018 9:08 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11403
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 119 of 137 (838833)
08-29-2018 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by ringo
02-10-2018 11:25 AM


Who Do You Say That I am?
ringo writes:

But who said anything about a global consensus?

Jesus asked Peter a question which could be said to be for all people everywhere.

Who do Men say that I am?

Peter is being asked to stand on his own and distance himself from the crowd. So ringo, who was Jesus? Is he more than another in a long line of teachers? Why or why not?

Granted the majority of the world did not have the opportunity to walk and talk with Jesus as Peter did. Some say that today's Christians should be genuine enough to walk with people as Jesus once did, but far too few Christians even measure up to the character of Jesus.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by ringo, posted 02-10-2018 11:25 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by jar, posted 08-29-2018 9:42 AM Phat has responded
 Message 123 by ringo, posted 08-29-2018 12:49 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 120 of 137 (838835)
08-29-2018 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Phat
08-29-2018 9:08 AM


Re: Who Do You Say That I am?
Phat writes:

Some say that today's Christians should be genuine enough to walk with people as Jesus once did, but far too few Christians even measure up to the character of Jesus.

But according to the testimony found in the Bible Jesus character was not much different than any other human of the period; he had a temper, could be abrupt, self centered, unsure, remorseful, petulant, demanding, unreasonable and selfish.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Phat, posted 08-29-2018 9:08 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Phat, posted 08-29-2018 9:58 AM jar has responded

  
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