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Author Topic:   The Tension of Faith
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1333 of 1540 (825668)
12-17-2017 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1315 by Faith
12-16-2017 6:08 PM


Re: on marriage as a civil contract
quote:
I'm talking about the Supreme Court decision to declare gay marriage the law of the land. It was not a decision of Congress but of the activist Supreme Court.
They did exactly the same with interracial marriage - an even less popular decision -which too many Christians also felt to be in violation of God’s Law. And aside from your personal beliefs there is very little difference between those decisions.
quote:
Really it isn't even legal but it is treated as if it's the law of the land anyway.
If you think that then it follows that there is no legal force to the decision legalising interracial marriage either.
It’s funnny how you aren’t protesting the earlier decision - even if you agree with the decision itself you must consider it an overreach by an activist Supreme Court - on a matter that you (wrongly) think should have been left to Congress.
quote:
I didn't say it was written for this specific purpose, except of course as manipulated by Satan himself.
Obviously not.
quote:
The law forces Christians when put in certain positions such as being asked to provide services for a gay wedding to violate our Christian conscience if we comply
We’ve yet to see any good reason why you can’t. Maybe better education in the Bible would overcome your bigotry, although the men you follow wouldn’t want that.
quote:
By defining gay marriage as a civil right the nation has committed a serious violation of common sense as well as God's Law, that was not committed by any nation or tribe on earth until recently
I’m going to ask again. Where does the Bible spell out rights and privileges that are to be exclusively reserved to heterosexual couples ? I’m sure it doesn’t mention health insurance specifically, but maybe you can find something close enough. Or maybe inheritance rights?
quote:
What do you hope to accomplish by trying to talk us out of something we can't be talked out of?
We can certainly make it plain that you have no claim to be really Christian.
quote:
What's sad is that there are so many Christians who don't think it's a problem.
Of course you don’t like people being Christian. We know that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1315 by Faith, posted 12-16-2017 6:08 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1337 by Faith, posted 12-17-2017 12:09 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1338 of 1540 (825700)
12-17-2017 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1337 by Faith
12-17-2017 12:09 PM


Re: on marriage as a civil contract
If you are Christian then tell us why you are lying in the name of denying the secular benefits of marriage to gay couples.
We know perfectly well that is the real issue here, since Christians have been seeking to deny those benefits when they came with civil unions or simply by the gift of employers. And really those benefits are all that gay marriage provides anyway. It just gives them all neatly and simply in one package.
And how do you react to the Christian couples who threatened to divorce if gay marriage were permitted ? Isn’t that an unquestionable breach of God’s Law?
But when I ask you how the secular benefits are against God’s Law - there is no answer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1337 by Faith, posted 12-17-2017 12:09 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1339 by Faith, posted 12-17-2017 12:41 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1340 of 1540 (825705)
12-17-2017 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1339 by Faith
12-17-2017 12:41 PM


Re: on marriage as a civil contract
quote:
I am not lying. I don't know all the arguments everybody has made. What I object to is specifically the concept of marriage being applied to gay couples. I'd be for some kind of legal contract that provided the benefits without the shadow of marriage being involved in it.
Your fellow Christians clearly do object - and it is quite likely that the people you are defending would also object. And really the modern concept of marriage is different enough from the version found in Genesis - and the fact that it is a wholly secular issue - that it isn’t really clear why you object.
quote:
Never heard of that, can't say much without knowing their thinking, but gay marriage is just the latest in the social program to destroy marriage, and their action would just add to the destruction.
Of course it isn’t a program to destroy marriage, it is simply extending the legal and civil benefits of marriage to gay couples. And you don’t object to that.
quote:
I probably didn't see that question because your posts are so obnoxious I sometimes skip them. I have no problem with people making legal contracts between them which include some form of commitment to each other. I don't know much about the legal situation but I'd think such things as putting someone on your insurance and legally granting the right to visit in the hospital should be possible. There's no reason why gays SHOULD get all the benefits of marriage though since those benefits were given to encourage marriage and children for the sake of society.
Gays can and do have children by various means - and I include adoption - that heterosexual couples with fertility problems also use. Also, the benefits of marriage are extended to infertile couples - including those where the woman is past child-bearing age when she marries. So that is not a valid objection at all. If the benefits are to encourage marriage and children does it make sense to deny the benefits to a gay couple bringing up children but grant them to a childless and infertile couple who happen to be straight ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1339 by Faith, posted 12-17-2017 12:41 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1341 by Faith, posted 12-17-2017 1:02 PM PaulK has replied
 Message 1342 by jar, posted 12-17-2017 1:03 PM PaulK has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1343 of 1540 (825713)
12-17-2017 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1341 by Faith
12-17-2017 1:02 PM


Re: on marriage as a civil contract
quote:
I'm against gay couples adopting except in some circumstances such as being a relative of the child
Well, of course you do. But does that mean that gays who have adopted children should be denied the secular benefits of marriage - even in the cases where they are relatives ? And how about gays raising children from previous, heterosexual relations?
quote:
There is nothing beneficial to society about children being raised by gays except when all the other options are worse.
I don’t see that gays are automatically worse than any other adoptive parents. And if the vetting processes aren’t good enough to determine that the adoption is in the best need of the child, then they aren’t good enough full stop. There’s no need to single out gays.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1341 by Faith, posted 12-17-2017 1:02 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1344 by Faith, posted 12-17-2017 1:27 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1345 of 1540 (825717)
12-17-2017 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1344 by Faith
12-17-2017 1:27 PM


Re: on marriage as a civil contract
quote:
It's the pretense to be a family equivalent to marriage that would make them bad parents. Crazy-making for the children.
What pretence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1344 by Faith, posted 12-17-2017 1:27 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1364 of 1540 (825770)
12-17-2017 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1356 by Faith
12-17-2017 3:02 PM


Re: on marriage as a civil contract
quote:
Gay people have lived together for years without all this folderol. There are ways to take care of the problems without all this confusion.
Legalising gay marriage solved the injustices at a stroke without causing confusion. Trying to solve the problem any other way would have been far worse. It’s the opponent’s of gay marriage who are causing the confusion - and there’s no reason to think they would have done any less if another solution had been tried.
Just because you would accept a solution doesn’t mean the people who complain bitterly and threaten boycotts when companies give rights to gay partners would.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1356 by Faith, posted 12-17-2017 3:02 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1367 of 1540 (825800)
12-18-2017 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1351 by Faith
12-17-2017 2:26 PM


Re: definitions and semantics, supernatural, miracle etc.
quote:
I don't care what the Old South did, they were biblically wrong.
Religious freedom is not religious freedom if it only applies to people who agree with you. If banning discrimination against gays was a First Amendment violation, so was banning discrimination against Blacks. That is indisputable.
So you should care because your case rises or falls with theirs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1351 by Faith, posted 12-17-2017 2:26 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1394 of 1540 (826001)
12-20-2017 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1393 by Faith
12-20-2017 2:13 PM


Re: Opinion Piece: White Christianity is its Own Biggest ThreatN ot
It’s funny Faith. When completely baseless accusations are made against people you hate - like Pizzagate - you love it.
When people truthfully criticise you or your fellow Christians you start screaming against it.
Is it any wonder people have a low opinion of you ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1393 by Faith, posted 12-20-2017 2:13 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1395 by Faith, posted 12-20-2017 2:38 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1397 of 1540 (826005)
12-20-2017 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1395 by Faith
12-20-2017 2:38 PM


Re: Opinion Piece: White Christianity is its Own Biggest ThreatN ot
quote:
Gosh, that's good PC spin too, totally reversing the truth. I will probably faint dead away if the truth ever shows up at EvC.
The truth shows up a lot. Often you don’t like it and call it lies. As you have just demonstrated.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1395 by Faith, posted 12-20-2017 2:38 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1398 of 1540 (826006)
12-20-2017 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1395 by Faith
12-20-2017 2:38 PM


Re: Opinion Piece: White Christianity is its Own Biggest ThreatN ot
quote:
Gosh, that's good PC spin too, totally reversing the truth. I will probably faint dead away if the truth ever shows up at EvC.
The truth shows up a lot. Often you don’t like it and call it lies. As you have just demonstrated.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1395 by Faith, posted 12-20-2017 2:38 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1399 by Faith, posted 12-20-2017 3:50 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1400 of 1540 (826017)
12-20-2017 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1399 by Faith
12-20-2017 3:50 PM


Re: Opinion Piece: White Christianity is its Own Biggest ThreatN ot
Sure Faith. Honest people predictably tell the truth even when you don’t like it.
Now do you have any substantive points to make ? Any solid answers to the evidence provided by the article and it’s links ? Or are you just going to go on throwing unsubstantiated accusations as usual ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1399 by Faith, posted 12-20-2017 3:50 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1426 of 1540 (826142)
12-23-2017 2:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1424 by Faith
12-22-2017 9:39 PM


Re: Oh well
quote:
It doesn't change the fact that your religious beliefs are not facts,
Only to you, to me they are, and I don't think your opinion gets to trump mine in this situation.
Even without any further consideration it is clear that you cannot expect others to regard your religious views as facts - at least not unless you can actually support them with sound arguments. (And you have a record of calling arguments good even though they have been shown to be bad).
In context, it looks worse. Your religious beliefs include twisting scripture to fit doctrine - and suppressing knowledge of the Bible that contradicts your beliefs with invented accusations (want to explain why that ISN’T bearing false witness?).
It seems a bit much then for you to accuse others of mistreating scripture.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1424 by Faith, posted 12-22-2017 9:39 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1427 by Faith, posted 12-23-2017 6:40 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1428 of 1540 (826145)
12-23-2017 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1427 by Faith
12-23-2017 6:40 AM


Re: Oh well
quote:
My beliefs are completely standard and typical and your accusations are off the wall.
It doesn’t matter whether it is standard to believe in twisting and misrepresenting the Bible to fit your dogma or in making false accusations against any who find out that the Bible isn’t what you want it to be. It’s still hardly what we’d expect from a Christian or anyone who can honestly claim to believe the Bible.
quote:
And my point was that you don't get just to announce YOUR view against mine as if yours is the truth if this is really a debate or a discussion.
But it isn’t just duelling opinions. In real, honest, debate it comes down to who can support their opinions with evidence and reason. And if you lose there, and you do, then getting angry about it and attacking people who dare to disagree with you is hardly a good thing to do in any sense. But you still do it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1427 by Faith, posted 12-23-2017 6:40 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1429 by Faith, posted 12-23-2017 7:00 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1430 of 1540 (826147)
12-23-2017 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1429 by Faith
12-23-2017 7:00 AM


Re: Oh well
quote:
I don't twist anything.
Odd coming from someone with a history of misrepresenting their sources. And it’s really hard to endorse Biblical inerrancy (let alone with Calvinism as well) without twisting or misrepresenting the Bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1429 by Faith, posted 12-23-2017 7:00 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 1455 of 1540 (826283)
12-28-2017 1:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1451 by Faith
12-27-2017 4:39 PM


Re: Tension from Faith
quote:
We will not disobey God. You can't compromise obedience to God.
You don’t have a command from God saying that you must oppose gay marriage.
You have permission to eat meat from pagan sacrices which seems at least as close an association as providing services for the secular celebration of a gay marriage.
And you seem quite willing to disobey other commands.
quote:
Muslims wouldn't make a wedding cake for a gay wedding either, because to them that would be disobeying Allah, and I don't think they even have a law about marriage in their holy books
You don’t have a relevant law in the Bible. We know that because you can’t find one. And, of course, the Quran speaks of marriage and Muslims include the Torah among their Holy books.
quote:
But nobody challenges them over this of course, because Islam is in favor and Christianity is not and bringing down Christianity is what it's all about.
Or because there are no instances of Muslims breaking the anti-discrimination laws. How many Muslim-run bakeries are there in states which include gays as a protected class ? How many of those supply wedding cakes ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1451 by Faith, posted 12-27-2017 4:39 PM Faith has not replied

  
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