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Author Topic:   The Tension of Faith
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1401 of 1540 (826024)
12-20-2017 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1393 by Faith
12-20-2017 2:13 PM


Re: Opinion Piece: White Christianity is its Own Biggest ThreatN ot
They are true because they are well founded in facts.
Roy Moore was only very recently dubbed a pedophile -- which he denies -- so nobody had chosen to vote for a pedophile. Typical PC lying garbage.
You're providing an excellent example of the Christian behavior that the opinion piece deplored.
The "immigrants" I call dangerous are not immigrants, nor are the illegal aliens, they are wannabe immigrants and it is WE who get to choose, not they, and to call them immigrants is typical leftist destruction of language and willful confusion of the public in the service of partisan politics.
The opinion piece wasn't about you personally. It was about Christians in general. Here's the chart from that report I linked to earlier. Notice the line for "White evangelical Protestant", highest on the whole chart for believing that the cultural impact of immigrants "Threatens traditional American customs and values":
Who knows why you guys feel this way. The Jews have been able to maintain traditional Jewish customs and values for thousands of years across many countries. I think we Americans should have little difficulty doing the same, especially since we aren't even being thrown out of our country the way the Jews were thrown out of theirs, over and over again.
"Fear" is evil spin. We are acting from basic biblical principles or from some other source of knowledge. Just slander, just character assassination, that's typical leftist m.o.
The opinion piece was written by one of your fellow Christians.
I'm not able to keep up with the PC lies, sorry, I don't have the energy or the motivation, it's all such a big fat miserable lying mess. I'm sorry to see you so enamored of all that.
Translation: Rebutting facts is exhausting and not possible anyway, so I'll just call everything a lie even though I know in my heart that I am bearing false witness.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1393 by Faith, posted 12-20-2017 2:13 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1402 by Faith, posted 12-20-2017 6:11 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1403 of 1540 (826028)
12-20-2017 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1402 by Faith
12-20-2017 6:11 PM


Re: Opinion Piece: White Christianity is its Own Biggest ThreatN ot
Faith writes:
Since the opinion piece used the usual PC lie "immigrants" to cover up the fact that he was talking about illegal aliens or Muslim refugees and not immigrants at all (those being the only "immigrants" Christians object to that I know of), I would suppose the same of that chart, since you offer no clarification otherwise.
No, he was not talking about illegal aliens or Muslim refugees. I provided the exact relevant chart from the report he linked to showing that he was talking about immigrants in general, not illegal aliens or Muslim refugees. Here it is again:
This chart shows that ""White evangelical Protestant" are the highest on the whole chart for believing that the cultural impact of immigrants "Threatens traditional American customs and values". "White evangelical Protestants" would be your people.
If you want the details about how the data in the chart was generated then see How Americans View Immigrants, and What They Want from Immigration Reform: Findings from the 2015 American Values Atlas. Here's the paragraph above the chart:
quote:
Religiously unaffiliated Americans, those who belong to non-Christian religious traditions, and non-white Christians hold the most positive views of immigrants. At least seven in ten Unitarian Universalists (81%), Hindus (73%), Muslims (72%), and Hispanic Catholics (70%) say that newcomers coming to the U.S. strengthen the country. Roughly two-thirds (65%) of Buddhists and about six in ten religiously unaffiliated Americans (61%) and Hispanic Protestants (60%) also affirm the positive contribution immigrants make to American society. White Christians express substantially more ambivalence about immigrants. Fewer than half of Mormons (45%), white Catholics (44%), and white mainline Protestants (41%) believe immigrants strengthen the country. Roughly four in ten Mormons (38%), white Catholics (41%), and white mainline Protestants (43%) say that immigrants present a threat to American culture. White evangelical Protestants stand out as the only religious community in which a majority (53%) believe that immigrants threaten traditional American customs and values. Only about one-third (32%) of white evangelical Protestants believe newcomers from other countries benefit the U.S.
Are you aware, or do you care, that cultural compatibility always used to be a criterion for admission to the US, at least it determined the numbers allowed in, a most sensible criterion at that?
Are you aware that we used to have slavery? Are you aware that in the years leading up to WWII that we, among many other western democracies, refused entry to Jews attempting to flee regions of Europe under Nazi threat? Do you really believe the examples of the past are the best to follow? Shouldn't we follow our hearts concerning the wellbeing of our fellow man, be he American or foreigner, Christian or some other religion?
That writer is a Liberal Christian at best, not a biblical Christian, and he sounds like any EvC leftie. Can't take him seriously about anything, sorry.
The writer is Charles Mathewes, professor of Religious Studies at the University of Virginia, and a senior fellow at UVA's Miller Center. He earned his B.A. in Theology from Georgetown University, and his M.A. and Ph.D. in Religion from the University of Chicago. Not a true Christian to you, I guess. All his talk about loving your fellow man is just too much for you to take.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1402 by Faith, posted 12-20-2017 6:11 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1404 by Faith, posted 12-20-2017 7:01 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1405 of 1540 (826032)
12-20-2017 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1404 by Faith
12-20-2017 7:01 PM


Re: Opinion Piece: White Christianity is its Own Biggest ThreatN ot
Wow! My cup runneth over! What a bounty of nonsense! Well, let's dig in.
Are YOU aware that the entire world was in favor of slavery and practiced it, and it's still practiced in other parts of the world, while ONLY Christians opposed it?
Even Christians in the South opposed slavery? Really?
I would imagine not because you are on a vendetta against Christians.
I'm not on a vendetta, and I have nothing against Christians. I'm simply debating a faux Christian like yourself who can't seem to make it through even a single sentence without some expression of hate.
Are you aware that when Jesus said to Love one another He was talking about Christians loving each other, not loving the whole world? We are to be at peace with all where possible, and treat all justly and kindly as God does, but we are not told to LOVE everybody, believe it or not.
Believe it or not? How about not. There was no such thing as a Christian while Jesus was alive, so how could he ever have said that Christians need only love each other?
More to the point, Jesus said, "Love thy neighbor as thyself." It's a version of the golden rule. As Christian Bible Reference says, "We commonly think of neighbors as the people who live near us, but Jesus meant it to include all mankind - even our enemies!"
But if you want to insist on it, what love means is desiring and seeking their salvation.
I see. For you love means deporting them, but desire their salvation.
God so loved the world that ...whosoever believeth on Him should have eternal life. That's not the kind of counterfeit love you have in mind which would promote violating God's law.
I'd say that counterfeit love is when you deport people while blowing them a kiss.
And I'm not at all impressed with the credentials of your writer. Georgetown is a Jesuit school where you can find all kinds of antichristian things taught, and I'm not sure what the U of Chicago would teach but wherever he got it, he's a deep dyed Liberal, not a traditional Christian.
I don't know what a "traditional Christian" is, but it ain't you because you aren't any Christian at all. Charles Mathewes seems a mainstream Christian, the Jesuits are just another object of your hate, and you have no idea whether he's liberal or conservative, though what possible difference could it make religiously, except that liberals are yet another object of your hate.
ABE: Shouldn't we "follow our hearts" you ask. Are you aware that the Bible warns us against following our hearts because they are "deceitful above all things?" Have you thought through where many hearts would lead? The human heart is not a lover of humanity, it's selfish and combative. You don't even see the meanness and hatred in your own heart.
"Selfish and combative...meanness and hatred" describes you so well that I can only conclude that you've been following your own heart for quite some time.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1404 by Faith, posted 12-20-2017 7:01 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1406 by jar, posted 12-20-2017 9:02 PM Percy has replied
 Message 1411 by Faith, posted 12-21-2017 11:36 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1407 of 1540 (826035)
12-20-2017 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1406 by jar
12-20-2017 9:02 PM


Re: Opinion Piece: White Christianity is its Own Biggest ThreatN ot
jar writes:
But she is a Christian Percy, and a rather typical example of the Calvin influenced Evangelical Christian.
I agree that she is Christian in name, but not in spirit.
She is exactly the type follower Jesus was talking about when he is quoted in the "I never knew you" passage in Matthew 7:
Jesus in Matthew 7 writes:
I Never Knew You
21 Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
What this says to me is that heaven must not be the motivation for deeds. This sounds like the basis for the Protestant doctrine of sola fide, which I think is part of the evangelical view. If I've got this right then that's lucky for Faith, since if she held the opposite view then with her attitudes her deeds would do her little good.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1406 by jar, posted 12-20-2017 9:02 PM jar has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1409 of 1540 (826049)
12-21-2017 8:01 AM


Samantha Bee Asks Why Evangelicals Support Trump
Samantha Bee of Full Frontal does it again as she interviews pastor A. R. Bernard of the Christian Cultural Center Megachurch in Brooklyn, New York, the only member of Trump's Evangelical Advisory Board to resign.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 1410 by Faith, posted 12-21-2017 7:28 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1413 of 1540 (826096)
12-22-2017 8:33 AM


Regrowing a Leg
Since the question of why health-related miracles always involve regaining health and not regaining limbs, I thought it interesting that the question popped up in an interview of Cardinal Joseph Tobin of Newark: Cardinal Tobin, Am I a Christian?. Here's the question and answer about missing limbs:
quote:
Can I ask about prayer? I accept that prayer has spiritual, healing value, but why is it that God answers prayers only in ambiguous situations, such as curing cancer, but never to, say, regrow a leg?
It’s interesting you mention that, Nicholas. My dad grew up strong and big, played football for Boston College, went into the service and lost his leg in World War II.
One night he was looking at his prosthesis. He said: I was thinking I’ve had that thing half my life now. But if I didn’t have that, I wouldn’t have your mother, and I wouldn’t have you. So he discovered something in that tragedy. Faith got him through it.
Sometimes I think when I don’t receive an answer to what I’m praying for, maybe what I’m asking for actually is something that could be harmful for me. I do believe God hears all prayers, and I believe God answers in some way.
Pardon me, Cardinal Tobin, but that is a major avoidance of the question. One more time: Why are prayers answered by ambiguous recoveries from illness where no one can know what truly happened, but never recovery of a limb? Surely it isn't possible that every person missing a limb would suffer some form of harm were it recovered, as you suggest. Does God have some weird plan where he divides people into categories where the best for some people is cancer followed by death, the best for others is cancer followed by recovery, and the best for others is loss of a limb followed by no recovery ever? And why are more people's faith served by loss of limbs during times of war than of peace?
You can just repeat the old canard, "God works in mysterious ways," which is just an admission that though you can speak many words you have no answers, or you can admit the obvious: when it comes to God, at least your God, the Christian God, there ain't nothing there. One thing I can say about my God: I've never made a single claim for him, other than that he exists and gives purpose to the universe, that can't be verified - that is to say, I don't write bad checks.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 1414 by Tangle, posted 12-22-2017 8:56 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1415 of 1540 (826107)
12-22-2017 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1410 by Faith
12-21-2017 7:28 PM


Re: Samantha Bee Asks Why Evangelicals Support Trump
Faith writes:
Doesn't it ever bother you that EvC is such a biased partisan mouthpiece?
The reality is that we can both express our opinions at EvC.
Your motto is "understanding through discussion" but anything but the leftist and antichristian party line is not given any voice here.
You and New Cat's Eye and any and all other Christians can post here as much as you like.
It's not just Creationist views that are treated unfairly, the whole of "Christianity" here is all liberal Christianity.
How is it unfair that people who disagree with you tell you so?
This guy Bernard is President of a branch of the World Council of Churches which is a screamingly leftist organization. with a tenuous connection to anything truly Christian. Whatever he says about Trump is going to be all formulaic Leftism.
I can't keep track of everything and everybody you hate, but Bernard is an evangelical, a born again Christian. That's why he sat on Trump's *Evangelical* Advisory Board. He's head of the Christian Cultural Center, a megachurch located in Brooklyn. The World Council of Churches that you mention is not a church and doesn't have branches - it's an organization that has members and describes itself like this:
quote:
The World Council of Churches is a fellowship of churches which confess the Lord Jesus Christ as God and Savior according to the scriptures, and therefore seek to fulfill together their common calling to the glory of the one God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
What's not to like about that?
I never heard of Samantha Bee before but she's obviously just another typical anti-Trumper.
Samantha Bee is just another late night host, like Jimmy Fallon, Jimmy Kimmel, Stephen Colbert, Trever Noah, etc. They all make fun of Trump because that's where the comedy is. You don't even have to make anything up, it writes itself.
You accept those views but not the views of traditional Christianity,...
Concerning Bernard's views, I accept his views on Trump, but he *is* a traditional evangelical Christian, you know, born again, the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost, all that stuff, and I don't accept those views at all.
...which you denounce in the most violently excoriating terms, personal terms too since one would think from your vicious slams against me that I was the only one on the planet to have such views.
Bernard is an evangelical like yourself. He believes the same things you do. Here's his Statement of Faith, it's on this page if you scroll down a bit:
quote:
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation, he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit, he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated on the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy universal and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.
Sounds like pretty much the same stuff you believe. What's not to like?
It's really interesting to get out of this suffocating environment and check out the conservative sites in the real world, where Trump is actually appreciated.
This is a discussion about faith, not Trump. Are you saying that people of faith have to be conservative and like Trump?
In the leftist headlines that are the first thing that hits an internet surfer from every angle, they are trying to impeach him, everything he does is a horrific gaffe or error to be lambasted, but in the real world he's mostly doing good things and being appreciated.
Again, this thread's about faith, not Trump, but to most of the world, including a majority in the United States, the man is an embarrassment, not to mention a host of other adjectives that since this thread isn't about Trump shall go unmentioned.
Leftist censorship rules what gets seen by the public and apparently you swallow it all along with the rest of the lefties.
Again, this thread is about faith. Can people of faith not be liberal?
And somehow it's allowed you to justify amazingly foul personal attacks on me for one, which you deny with the most amazing kinds of rationalization and appalling self-righteousness.
I suggest you try saying something nice about somebody or something. You'll find that people are much more supportive of expressions of love and support rather than hate and negativity.
There are many true Christian sources out there but it seems you like the false ones like Bernard,...
Again, he's an evangelical who believes the same things you do.
...but a quick perusal of the conservative news media is enough to show the completely other world on the other side of the great political divide that is being suppressed by the Left. Drudge, Front Page Magazine, Breitbart, Infowars, Newsmax, World Net Daily, and many more.
I just checked. The websites for Drudge, Front Page Magazine, Breitbart, Infowars, Newsmax and World Net Daily are still up and active right now at this very minute. They are not being suppressed.
You know, I think you were able to get through an entire post without saying a single true thing. Congratulations!
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1410 by Faith, posted 12-21-2017 7:28 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1418 by Faith, posted 12-22-2017 2:24 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1416 of 1540 (826108)
12-22-2017 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1411 by Faith
12-21-2017 11:36 PM


Re: Opinion Piece: White Christianity is its Own Biggest ThreatN ot
Faith writes:
There was no such thing as a Christian while Jesus was alive, so how could he ever have said that Christians need only love each other?
Percy you are so supremely ignorant of Christian theology I don't know where you get your nerve to make such comments.
And yet despite my ignorance what I said was precisely true. Jesus never expressed any interest in creating a new religion. That was Paul's idea.
They have potential murderers among them simply because they follow the teachings of Mohammed who was a murderer and advocated murder.
Ah, the love is just coming through again.
Would you call it love to bring dangerous people into your own town? No, I suppose you just deny the truth of this and that allows you to excoriate me and anyone else who appreciates the reality of the danger.
Immigrants are vetted, people are basically the same the world over regardless of race, creed, color, etc., you hate them anyway if they're not just like you.
Of course but see above, it isn't what you think love is.
Oh, this must be one of those Big Brother things, I'll add it to the list:
War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength
Love is Hate
A liberal Christian twists the scripture much as you do to make it mean something it doesn't mean.
You evangelicals pick and choose which parts of scripture you accept as much as any other churches, for instance, you're not stoning anyone anymore.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1411 by Faith, posted 12-21-2017 11:36 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1417 by Faith, posted 12-22-2017 1:58 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1419 of 1540 (826117)
12-22-2017 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1417 by Faith
12-22-2017 1:58 PM


dRe: Opinion Piece: White Christianity is its Own Biggest ThreatN ot
Faith writes:
Sigh. You are so confused but nevertheless think you know it all.
I think you are the one who's confused. You seem to think your religious beliefs are facts.
They have potential murderers among them simply because they follow the teachings of Mohammed who was a murderer and advocated murder.
Ah, the love is just coming through again.
This has to be willful ignorance on your part. There is certainly enough information out there to show you the truth about all this but you persist in vilifying the messengers of the truth.
There's murder in the Bible, too. So there you have them, two books like peas in a pod, yet one you believe is love and the other hate. The only true difference between them relevant to your opinions is that one is your book and the other isn't. Had you been raised in Iran you'd be as fervent about the Koran as you are about the Bible.
Would you call it love to bring dangerous people into your own town? No, I suppose you just deny the truth of this and that allows you to excoriate me and anyone else who appreciates the reality of the danger.
Immigrants are vetted, people are basically the same the world over regardless of race, creed, color, etc., you hate them anyway if they're not just like you.
This is bizarre. First the point is that the vetting hasn't been what it should be, Obama brought in many without bothering to do much vetting.
Untrue, even your hero Mr. Trump contradicts you. From Trump’s new deportation plan: Do what Obama is doing but ‘with a lot more energy’
quote:
"What people don't know is that Obama got tremendous numbers of people out of the country."
ISLAM teaches killing infidels, Why don't you know this?
Islam does not teach killing infidels. Don't be so gullible.
No, love is obeying the commandments. How did you miss that?
How'd you think this one up? This doesn't even make sense. For example, Jesus said, "Love thy neighbor as thyself." And you're saying that by love he meant something like, "Obey the commandments relative to your neighbor as thyself." How does this work exactly? For instance, what does "Honor thy father and thy mother" have to do with loving your neighbor? How about graven images? Is that like don't put your graven images in your neighbor's garage?
Looks like just more nonsense from you.
But you missed the point anyway, which is that liberals don't just pick and choose, they actively contradict the scripture, do exactly what it says not to do. As I explained clearly enough.
Who's to say which is worse, doing what the scriptures say not to do, or not doing what the scriptures say to do. You're still just making it up.
Faith, you can believe whatever you want, but you keep falling into the trap of thinking that just because you think your interpretation of the Bible is true that everyone else has to think so, too. They're just your religious beliefs that you accept on faith.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1417 by Faith, posted 12-22-2017 1:58 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1420 by Faith, posted 12-22-2017 3:28 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1422 of 1540 (826120)
12-22-2017 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1418 by Faith
12-22-2017 2:24 PM


Re: Samantha Bee Asks Why Evangelicals Support Trump
Faith writes:
The reality is that we can both express our opinions at EvC.
The point, which I'm sure you know but have an interest in denying, is that ideas that contradict the EvC leftist evolutionist party lines come from single voices of people who get trashed by the party liners, who pile on us and defend each other against us but I can't remember the last time anyone ever defended me against the kind of trashing you've been doing of me. That's not exactly freedom of opinion except in the most irrelevant way.
You already have freedom of opinion. What you apparently want is freedom from criticism. Good luck with that.
Bernard's wife is called a pastor, which is a strong clue to basic liberal theology. Any affiliation with the World Council of Churches is enough to show he's not one of us however. The statement of such a creed or the claim to be born again can be just a smokescreen behind which all kinds of false doctrines and political activism can lurk, of which we have quite a few hints already. I haven't figured out how it is possible but it seems that there are "Christians" who affirm such basic principles and yet manage to be enemies of Christianity, something I've been finding out at EvC. I haven't had the stomach to listen to any of his sermons yet but I suspect they'll be a rich source of evidence if I can ever stand to do it.
You seem to actively seek out things to hate or be suspicious of:
  • Churches with female pastors.
  • Churches with a basic liberal theology.
  • The World Council of Churches.
  • False claims of born again that make people enemies of Christianity.
Since liberal theology denies the clear commands of scripture, I do tend to believe you have to be a conservative to be a Christian though it depends on how much disobedience God is willing to overlook for people who claim to believe the main doctrines of the faith and yet hold to other false doctrines, and I can't judge that in many cases.
You brought up Trump, and I was speaking politically. Were you saying that people of faith have to be politically conservative and like Trump?
How about just giving people the benefit of the doubt for once and saying, "Fare thee well, fellow Christian traveler."
Again, this thread's about faith, not Trump, but to most of the world, including a majority in the United States, the man is an embarrassment, not to mention a host of other adjectives that since this thread isn't about Trump shall go unmentioned.
You have simply succumbed to the leftist media censorship.
What censorship? How would we know that foreign leaders have said all these things about Trump if there was censorship (from 61 not-very-positive things foreign leaders have said about Donald Trump):
  1. "Mr Trump is so stupid, my God!" Paris Mayor Anne Hidalgo.
  2. Divisive, unhelpful and quite simply wrong. Former British prime minister David Cameron on Trump's proposed Muslim travel ban.
  3. He changes opinions like the rest of us change underwear." Danish Foreign Minister Kristian Jensen.
  4. His discourse is so dumb, so basic." Ecuadorian President Rafael Correa.
  5. That’s the way Mussolini arrived and the way Hitler arrived. Mexican President Enrique Pea on Trump's rhetoric.
  6. "Trump is an irrational type." Chinese Finance Minister Lou Jiwei.
  7. "Yes [the election of Donald Trump would be dangerous]. [It] would complicate relations between Europe and the United States." French President Francois Hollande.
  8. "You [Trump] are a disgrace not only to the GOP but to all America. Withdraw from the U.S. presidential race as you will never win." Saudi Prince Alwaleed bin Talal Alsaud.
  9. "I can only hope that the election campaign in the USA does not lack the perception of reality." Germany's Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier on Trump's use of the "America first" slogan.
  10. Mr. Trump’s statement only serves to show not only his insensitivity, but also his ignorance about Pakistan. Pakistani Interior Minister Chaudry Nisar Ali Khan after Trump demanded the release of a doctor who helped the CIA hunt down Osama bin Laden in 2011.
  11. For the life of me, I cannot believe that a country like the United States can afford to have someone as president who simply says, ‘These people are not going to be allowed to come to the United States.' " Saudi Prince Turki al-Faisal, a former ambassador to the U.S., on Trump's proposed Muslim ban.
  12. Let's be clear, Donald Trump is an idiot. I have tried to find different, perhaps more parliamentary adjectives to describe him but none was clear enough. He is an idiot." Gavin Newlands, a British MP with the Scottish National Party.
  13. Scary. That’s how we view Trump [...] Could we depend on the United States? We don’t know. I can’t tell you how the unpredictability we are seeing scares us. An unnamed ambassador whose country has a close relationship with Washington.
  14. If he becomes president it would be a catastrophe. He’s an avowed admirer of Vladimir Putin and it would be a disaster for international politics if Trump gets anywhere near the nuclear button." Sren Espersen, a foreign affairs spokesperson for the far right Danish People's Party.
  15. When an apple’s red, it is red. When you say ignorant things, you’re ignorant." Mexico’s top diplomat, Foreign Affairs Secretary Claudia Ruiz Massieu.
  16. "I consider Donald Trump a man who invests a lot in a policy of fear." Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi.
  17. "I think the Donald Trump phenomenon is a real problem for the United States, making their democracy look kind of weird." Christopher Pyne, minister for industry, innovation and science in the Australian government.
  18. "Whether Donald Trump, Marine le Pen or Geert Wilders all these right-wing populists are not only a threat to peace and social cohesion, but also to economic development." Germany's Vice Chancellor Sigmar Gabriel.
  19. "Seriously, have you ever heard me say something like that?" French far right politician Marine Le Pen on Trump's proposal to ban foreign Muslims from entry to the United States.
  20. Given his positions, do we even want to have anything to do with this guy? An unnamed European ambassador.
  21. If he becomes president, it will be a disaster. Former Danish foreign minister Martin Lidegaard.
  22. "[Trump has] no regard for alliances at all." Former Australian ambassador to the U.S. Kim Beazley.
  23. "You listen to him at the debates and what he says is unsettling he is promising to change things from one day to the next. A lot of us thought he couldn’t possibly be the nominee [...] The uncertainty is very, very scary. An unnamed European ambassador.
  24. "Donald Trump's ignorant view of Islam could make both our countries less safe: It risks alienating mainstream Muslims around the world and plays into the hands of the extremists." London Mayor Sadiq Khan.
  25. "Donald Trump's remarks are totally absurd and illogical." Ri Jong Ryul, deputy-director general of the Institute of International Studies in North Korea, after Trump suggested that Japan and South Korea arm themselves with nuclear weapons.
  26. "He is very good at making speeches, but as a politician and a world leader? No, I don’t think that’s a very good idea. Jimmie Akesson, leader of the far right Sweden Democrats.
  27. Some of the claims made during the campaign have been empty or just wrong." Peter Westmacott, former British ambassador to the United States.
  28. A person who thinks only about building walls wherever they may be and not building bridges, is not Christian." Pope Francis.
  29. The orange prince of American self-publicity. Marcus Fysh, British MP with the Conservative Party.
  30. If Trump beats Hillary, that means that the scenario of the clash of civilizations created by Samuel will come to light at the hands of the candidate and [Islamic State leader] al-Baghdadi. Lt. Gen. Dahi Khalfan bin Tamim, head of general security for the Emirate of Dubai.
  31. "So Donald Trump is ambitious but not exactly a very well-informed man, I don't want to say ignorant, but he is not very well informed." Former Mexican president Felipe Calderon
  32. "The comments made are unacceptable. Irish Taoiseach Enda Kenny on Trump's Muslim travel ban.
  33. "If he met one or two of my constituents in one of the many excellent pubs in my constituency, they may well tell him he is a wazzock." Victoria Atkins, British MP with the Conservative Party.
  34. In the past when candidates said extreme things, there always has been some seasoned, experienced adviser you could talk to, or who would speak out to soften what was said. This is not the case with Trump. Unnamed ambassador from South America.
  35. "The person you are dealing with may be a successful businessman, but he's also a buffoon." Gavin Robinson, a British MP from Northern Ireland who represents the Democratic Unionist Party.
  36. Trump’s remarks do not show a sense of introspection on what their results would bring about; he does not know the gravity of what he says. South Korea's vice foreign minister Choi Young-jin.
  37. "[A Trump presidency would be] a disaster for E.U.-U.S. ties." An unnamed senior E.U. official.
  38. "If Donald Trump was to end up as president of the United States, I think we better head for the bunkers." Carl Bildt, former foreign minister of Sweden.
  39. [The anti-Islam rhetoric of] Donald Trump and others in Europe are really the shame of our civilization. Albanian Prime Minister Edi Rama.
  40. A successful politician would not make such statement, as there are millions of Muslims living in the U.S. Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan on Trump's proposed ban on Muslim arrivals.
  41. The opportunism, unreliability and amorality that we have seen during the [Trump] campaign would be damaging for the world in general and hurt Europe in particular." Ana Palacio, former Spanish foreign minister.
  42. "Trump, like others, stokes hatred and conflations." Manuel Valls, prime minister of France, on the proposed Muslim travel ban.
  43. "This nation [the U.S.] is going to fail if it goes into the hands of a crazy guy." Former Mexican president Vicente Fox.
  44. We had such appreciation for your system when Barack Hussein Obama was elected [...] Hussein was his middle name. Hussein! He was black. We so admired that America could do something like that. Now you have a candidates who doesn’t want Muslims. An unnamed ambassador from the Middle East.
  45. "Vulture." Gerard Araud, French ambassador to the U.S., in response to a Donald Trump tweet about gun control in France (Araud later deleted this tweet).
  46. Trump solutions for me are false solutions, but they’re not original. They’re things that we have heard in Europe from extremist sections, Sandro Gozi, undersecretary for European affairs in the Italian government.
  47. "It's not a man I would vote for, I can tell you that [...] I hope that the American people, and I think they will, choose someone else who is better equipped for this task." Swedish Defense Minister Peter Hultqvist.
  48. "Prime Minister Netanyahu rejects Donald Trump’s recent remarks about Muslims." A statement from Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu after Trump's proposed Muslim travel ban.
  49. Saying the U.S. will no longer engage in anything that is a burden in terms of its relationships with allies, it would be almost like abandoning those alliances [...] It will inevitably give rise to anti-American sentiment worldwide. Former South Korean vice foreign minister Kim Sung-han.
  50. A lot of what Donald Trump says makes for a more unstable world." Norwegian Prime Minister Erna Solberg.
  51. "I think Donald Trump's views are just barking mad on some issues." Australian opposition leader Bill Shorten.
  52. "Trump's statements are shocking and disgusting." Isaac Herzog, Israeli opposition leader, on Trump's proposed Muslim travel ban.
  53. "The only reason I wouldn't visit some parts of New York is the real risk of meeting Donald Trump." Former London mayor and British Foreign Minister MP Boris Johnson.
  54. "We see it as the dramatics of a popular actor." North Korea's ambassador to Britain, Hyon Hak Bong, on Trump's offer to open nuclear talks with Pyongyang.
  55. Trump reflects "the ultraconservative, racist, and war-like thinking that is incubated in the roots of the empire." Nicaraguan President Daniel Ortega.
  56. A lot of people in Mexico and Latin America are worried about this. It’s not just the substance of what Trump says, but it’s the style. It’s a familiar and worrisome style to us." Former Mexican foreign minister Jorge Castaneda.
  57. He has a backwards world view. ... In sum, not just for Brazil but for the whole world — the election of Trump would be a disaster. Former president of Brazil Fernando Henrique Cardoso.
  58. He would make an important contribution to anti-American sentiment around the world. Unnamed Latin American diplomat.
  59. He is not predictable and this unpredictability is a danger. And therefore it is not in the common interest, nor in the interest of the west, that we have President Donald Trump. Elmar Brok, German MEP and chair of the European parliament’s foreign affairs committee.
  60. The rhetoric adopted by US presidential candidate Donald Trump vis-a-vis Islam and Muslims is unacceptable and greatly offensive." Former Egyptian foreign minister Nabil Fahmy.
  61. "The fact is, Cape Breton is lovely all times of the year and if people do want to make choices that perhaps suit their lifestyles better, Canada is always welcoming and opening." Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau when asked a question about the potential that Americans could leave the country if Trump is elected.
Or how about these headlines:
Obviously there's no censorship. The news about Trump's embarrassing behavior is amply available. But I'll stop there, this thread isn't about Trump, it's about faith.
Again, this thread is about faith. Can people of faith not be liberal?
Depends on how far they go into disobeying scripture and following worldly leftist politics.
Actually, this time you make sense. Conservative politics and the evangelical agenda do align on some key issues, like LGBT rights and so forth.
I say lots of nice things about the people I agree with Percy, we just happen to be discussing people who hold false doctrine.
Didn't Jesus say something about loving your enemies? Matthew 5:44?
I can say lots of nice things about Brigitte Gabriel and Bill Warner and David Horowitz and Steve Bannon and Franklin Graham and Robert Spencer and so on and so forth.
I don't know any of those names except Steve Bannon, one of the few people who outdoes you in the hate department. Check out 15 Gross Things White House Chief Strategist Steve Bannon Has Said.
I just checked. The websites for Drudge, Front Page Magazine, Breitbart, Infowars, Newsmax and World Net Daily are still up and active right now at this very minute. They are not being suppressed.
Sure they are. Few of them show up in Google searches for political topics except way down the list (and that's very rare too), or on Yahoo's front page or any of the other headline pages the internet surfer encounters on first entry. You have to specifically search for them. If I didn't have them on my favorites list it is possible I'd never ever see any of them.
Couldn't prove it by me. Local businessman here in New England Robert Kraft just committed to building a factory in North Carolina, and when I searched for this at Google News Breitbart was the top item, Boston Globe was second. Try the search yourself.
You can set Google News to give priority to the news sources you like. Open the Google News page, click on the Settings icon near the right top (it looks like a gear), then select "Sources". Follow the instructions.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1418 by Faith, posted 12-22-2017 2:24 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1425 by Faith, posted 12-22-2017 10:00 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1423 of 1540 (826121)
12-22-2017 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1420 by Faith
12-22-2017 3:28 PM


Re: Oh well
Faith writes:
And another strenuous effort to get the truth across bites the dust, alas.
Actually what bites the dust is any chance of continuing discussion on those subtopics. Once again you bring discussion to an end. You're nothing if not consistent.
It doesn't change the fact that your religious beliefs are not facts, that there's murder in the Bible, too, that you were wrong about immigration policy under Obama, that Islam does not teach killing infidels, that love is not "obeying the commandments", and that conservative Christians follow the Bible no better or worse than liberal Christians.
You have a lot of very specific religious beliefs. You accept those beliefs on faith. Others are under no obligation to believe the same things you do, and they certainly do not deserve ill treatment when they don't.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1420 by Faith, posted 12-22-2017 3:28 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1424 by Faith, posted 12-22-2017 9:39 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1431 of 1540 (826168)
12-23-2017 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1424 by Faith
12-22-2017 9:39 PM


Re: Oh well
Faith writes:
I meant temporarily, "for now," sorry I wasn't clear, but as usual it's hard to have such a frustrating conversation when nothing I say is acceptable and your views are from some other planet from my point of view.
My views should not seem like they're from some other planet to you since you yourself held different views in the past. You need only look to your past self to find different views, not some other planet. And you're ignoring the reality that the world is full of different religions with different beliefs and always has been. Describing views different from your own as if from some other planet merely highlights how deeply you've fallen into conservative Christianity like a cult, where outsiders aren't trusted and in your case are always denigrated and even considered dangerous.
But nevertheless I DID mean only "for now."
And yet you're only replying to my very brief single paragraph summary of my Message 1419, not Message 1419 itself where the arguments supporting my points were actually laid out. How convenient for you to only have to reply to extremely short clauses. Are you congenitally unable to behave with honor and integrity and fairness, or must your behavior always be in ways that are self-serving and advantageous for you.
In your entire time here have I ever abandoned a discussion, or said I was going to abandon a discussion then not abandoned it, or given one of your detailed posts a one sentence reply, or typed in all caps, or wished eternal damnation upon you, and on and on? The answer is no. Then why do you do this to me and everyone else over and over again. It's simply unforgivable, not to mention incredibly unChristian.
You say you're a sinner and that though you try to measure up to being a Christian that you often fail, but your behavior isn't even as good as the worst behaving atheist here, and this has been going on for years. During all your time here you haven't become a better Christian, you've become worse. You should take a careful look at your Christianity, because it isn't making you a better person but a worse one. You've been suckered into a cultish branch of evangelicalism that teaches hate and calls it love.
Thank you for saying you're sorry, but it would take too big a mountain of apologies to make up for all your trespasses against others, so don't even try. The best way you can show you're sorry is to stop doing these things.
It doesn't change the fact that your religious beliefs are not facts,
Only to you, to me they are, and I don't think your opinion gets to trump mine in this situation.
Your religious beliefs may seem like facts to you, but unless you have not an ounce of ability to look at things from other points of view, you also know that most people in the world do not share your viewpoint. No one else is obligated to consider your views facts. That is why you are the one who is confused. It is also why so many of your posts are mere declarations of what you believe with not an ounce of supporting evidence or argument, as if merely stating your beliefs was sufficient evidence in itself.
that there's murder in the Bible, too,
Which is always presented as historical fact, not something addressed to the reader to be carried out, as the Koran does, which has been explained a million times at EvC, but I guess you just refuse to believe it.
Why, thank you so much for replying to this extremely brief one-clause summary of a longer argument from my Message 1419. I am just so thankful for the opportunity to type my argument all over again. You are so wonderful. I just sing your praises.
Try Joshua 6, for one example. The Bible and Koran are peas in a pod. You like the book that is yours and hate the one that is not. Had you been raised in Iran you'd be as fervent about the Koran as you are about the Bible.
that you were wrong about immigration policy under Obama,
If so I'll apologize but I'll have to find out first.
As I said in Message 1419 (again, thank you for making me repeat this), even your hero Mr. Trump contradicts you. From Trump’s new deportation plan: Do what Obama is doing but ‘with a lot more energy’.
quote:
"What people don't know is that Obama got tremendous numbers of people out of the country."
This also indicates that your news sources are failing you. It's well known that deportations under Obama were up. It was one of the things Democrats consistently criticized him for, and it was frequently reported in the press. Or maybe sites like Drudge and Breitbart aren't as thorough and honest in reporting the news as your think? Something to consider. You might recall that several months ago when challenged to come up with any examples where the reality-based media reported fake news that you never responded with any. You might not like the opinion pages of the New York Times and the Washington Post, but you can trust their news reporting.
that Islam does not teach killing infidels,
As I said, how you could possibly think this is hard to explain, considering all the information out there about how it does. It must be some kind of self-induced blindness.
Just like the Bible is not Christianity (Christians don't stone anyone anymore), the Koran is not Islam. Islam the religion no more teaches killing infidels than Christianity the religion teaches stoning people.
that love is not "obeying the commandments",
Did you miss where I said it is a condensation of the second tablet of the Ten Commandments, which Jesus himself explained in Matthew 22:39
No, Jesus did not say anything about "Love thy neighbor as thyself" being a condensation of the second tablet of the Ten Commandments in Matthew 22:39. Look it up. No wonder Jar keeps asking if you if you've even read the Bible. "Love thy neighbor as thyself" is exactly what I said it was back in Message 1405, a version of the golden rule.
The correspondence you note with the second tablet of the Ten Commandments is also true, but it is not true that, "Love is obeying the commandments," which is what you said in Message 1417.
But we only got off down this rathole because you said love didn't mean what I think it means. I think it means very much what I think it means. For you love is a bunch of rules you make up that you then force on other people. For me love is wishing the very best for people, and not my idea of what is best for them, but their own.
Others are under no obligation to believe the same things you do,
Of course, but they are under an obligation in a debate to recognize that I believe it,...
That's a ridiculous thing to imply. Where did I ever deny that you believe what you claim to believe?
...but I find you imposing your view of it on me instead, insisting aggressively that "[my] beliefs are not facts."
Your beliefs are very definitely not facts. Facts are true for everyone. Religious beliefs are personal and are true for the individual who holds them.
and they certainly do not deserve ill treatment when they don't.
If that truly describes anything I've done, I'm truly sorry.
Show your sorry by loving them with all your heart (Skip the nonsense about me not having the right definition of heart - that's just more hate from you. You know very well what definition of the word heart I'm using, and since you're usually so irascible here it is anyway: The heart regarded as the centre of a person's thoughts and emotions, especially love or compassion.).
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1424 by Faith, posted 12-22-2017 9:39 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1432 by Faith, posted 12-23-2017 3:14 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1434 by LamarkNewAge, posted 12-24-2017 12:41 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1433 of 1540 (826173)
12-23-2017 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1425 by Faith
12-22-2017 10:00 PM


Re: Samantha Bee Asks Why Evangelicals Support Trump
Faith writes:
Didn't Jesus say something about loving your enemies? Matthew 5:44?
Yes, our PERSONAL enemies, and loving anyone never means treating their wrong doctrine as true.
Where in Matthew 4:44 does it say "PERSONAL enemies":
quote:
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Have you even read the Bible?
And why is someone you believe has a "wrong doctrine" your enemy? Maybe that's your whole problem, you see people who disagree with you or who hold different views as your enemy.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1425 by Faith, posted 12-22-2017 10:00 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1435 by Faith, posted 12-24-2017 8:46 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 1436 of 1540 (826196)
12-25-2017 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 1435 by Faith
12-24-2017 8:46 AM


Does True Christian Faith Mean Loving All?
Merry Christmas!
Celebration of Christmas and the exchange of presents will be delayed today. Snow began falling last night and will continue through much of the day. When it stops I'll clear the driveway, we'll gather together, and Christmas will begin! For now we sit and wait by the fire listening to Christmas carols.
Faith writes:
It's very clear from the context of what you quoted from Matthew that it's talking about personal enemies.
I doubt I could ever convince you otherwise, but it doesn't take a follower of Jesus to know that his message was worldwide. We are to love one and all, both those we know and those we don't, those who are near and those who are far, all our fellow man.
As for your other post there's no point in explaining again to deaf ears how you are totally ignorant of the meaning of the Bible...
I may be ignorant of what you think the Bible means, but not its true meaning.
...since all you do is repeat your ignorant views even more aggressively with even more aggressive character assassination to back them up.
I can't assassinate your character. If your words express love then everyone can see that for themselves, and if they express hate then people can see that, too. If I say your message is one of hate when it isn't then I only assassinate my own character. Clearly you don't like me calling attention to what you say, but I can't ignore your words when I reply to your posts - that would make no sense, and besides, they are the elephant in the room.
Oh, and somewhere back there you said I was the one who brought up Trump.
In Message 1409 I presented a YouTube video of Samantha Bee asking why evangelicals support Trump. It was meant to raise the question of why evangelicals, supposedly people of deep faith, support someone who is the antithesis of much of what they believe, and are they following their faith or what is politically expedient? It wasn't meant to turn the thread into a discussion of Trump, but you replied with a character assassination of A. R. Bernard and expressions of support for Trump. On this day of Christmas perhaps you can say a small prayer for Trump, Bernard, and Samantha Bee, wishing them happiness in their lives.
There were times when attempting to turn the discussion back to the topic of faith that you replied about Trump. That's all I meant in Message 1422. I've changed the message subtitle.
But on this day of Christmas and throughout the year I wish that you may find the truth you're looking for, and that it leads you to greater happiness.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Grammar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1435 by Faith, posted 12-24-2017 8:46 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1437 by Faith, posted 12-25-2017 12:43 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 1440 of 1540 (826226)
12-26-2017 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1437 by Faith
12-25-2017 12:43 PM


Re: Does True Christian Faith Mean Loving All?
Well, it stopped snowing around noontime yesterday, so we had the driveway cleared by 1 PM and Christmas underway by 2 PM. A great time was had by all! One side comment: It's evidently hard to get snowplow drivers to come out on Christmas, the roads were terrible until pretty late in the day.
Faith writes:
Matthew 23 should show that Jesus was far from preaching the kind of love you have in mind.
Matt 23:33-35 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
This passage isn't about love, I doubt it's anything Jesus really said, and I don't believe Jesus really existed anyway. We've already established that Christian religions, including yours, pick and choose which parts of the Bible they're going to follow. You all just invent post hoc rationalizations for what you want to believe.
Among other things gay marriage is sin, abortion is sin,...
And you're hell bent on enforcing your views of sin on others.
Loving the sinner does not mean justifying or accommodating to the sin, it means calling sinners to repentance and salvation.
Yes, that's precisely what I said, that you're imposing your own rules on others and calling it love.
I hate what God hates and love what He loves.
What happened to the God of love? This is you in Message 1197:
Faith in Message 1197 writes:
God is a God of love, period.
You've been backtracking from this ever since you said it, but it is the only honest thing you've said on this subject.
When someone is so committed to putting evil for good and good for evil as you are, and actually condemns the truthtellers it's best to end the discussion.
You make it sound like you think your God's judge on earth.
ABE: About Trump...While it would be nice to have a squeaky clean President...
This thread isn't about Trump, but as long as you bring him up...
We'd just like to have a president who isn't a slimebag scumball pathological liar, sometimes for himself and sometimes just for the heck of it.
...unless they are actually criminal, which Clinton may have been,...
In this country politicians of integrity don't seek to lock up their political opponents.
Evangelicals HATE the Left's totalitarian policies.
Making things better for people, say by providing them decent healthcare or not deporting them, is not totalitarianism. You evangelicals are never happy unless you're making someone miserable.
Trump is for true freedom.
Sure, that's why he starts up chants of, "Lock her up, lock her up," at his rallies.
We're for what he is for.
That's very sad, because Trump is for himself and no one else. He is petty, petulant, megalomaniacal, narcissistic, crass, vulgar, crude, manipulative, deceiving, ignorant, egotistical, racist, bigoted, unfit, arrogant, impulsive, incompetent.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1437 by Faith, posted 12-25-2017 12:43 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1441 by Faith, posted 12-26-2017 2:59 PM Percy has replied

  
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