Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 88 (8846 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 07-21-2018 5:33 AM
243 online now:
Faith, PaulK (2 members, 241 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: MrTim
Upcoming Birthdays: anglagard
Post Volume:
Total: 835,405 Year: 10,228/29,783 Month: 892/1,583 Week: 361/291 Day: 10/59 Hour: 3/4


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev12
3
4Next
Author Topic:   WHY MANDATES ARE MANDATORY
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 58 (826037)
12-20-2017 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Rrhain
12-19-2017 7:49 PM


Completely off topic: Do you think that you are a bit of a narcissist?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Rrhain, posted 12-19-2017 7:49 PM Rrhain has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Percy, posted 12-21-2017 8:50 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17409
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


(2)
Message 32 of 58 (826052)
12-21-2017 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by New Cat's Eye
12-20-2017 10:25 PM


New Cat's Eye writes:

Completely off topic: Do you think that you are a bit of a narcissist?

I hope this doesn't mean you'll be making no meaningful reply to Rrhain's Message 30, which was a reply to your Message 25, which was a reply to my Message 24. I didn't reply to your Message 25 because Rrhain had already replied and done as good a job as I could have ever hoped to do, though I concede he does tend to come on a bit strong.

So I hope you answer Rrhain's points involving libertarian "every-man-for-himself"-ism, the success of national health care systems in other countries, the example of Opdivo, your sacrifice of the realities of how to provide fair and decent healthcare on the pyre of your antagonism toward government , and why government has to be part of the solution.

Don't reply to me - reply to Rrhain's Message 30. I'll join back in when it seems fitting.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Fix the quote.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-20-2017 10:25 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-21-2017 9:40 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 37 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-21-2017 11:42 AM Percy has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10739
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 33 of 58 (826053)
12-21-2017 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by New Cat's Eye
12-19-2017 2:45 PM


Being retarded?

No more than I expected. I'll note here that other folks see your BS just as well as I do.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-19-2017 2:45 PM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

    
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 58 (826059)
12-21-2017 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Percy
12-21-2017 8:50 AM


I hope this doesn't mean you'll be making no meaningful reply to Rrhain's Message 30, which was a reply to your Message 25, which was a reply to my Message 24. I didn't reply to your Message 25 because Rrhain had already replied and done as good a job as I could have ever hoped to do, though I concede he does tend to come on a bit strong.

I have no interest in discussing with that person.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Percy, posted 12-21-2017 8:50 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by xongsmith, posted 12-21-2017 10:14 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 1849
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009


Message 35 of 58 (826060)
12-21-2017 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by New Cat's Eye
12-21-2017 9:40 AM


NCE writes
I have no interest in discussing with that person.

gee....it's times like these that I wish the Jeer button was back. NCE has been something of an asshole lately and should be feeling a sting of some kind.

oh well....


- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-21-2017 9:40 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-21-2017 11:21 AM xongsmith has not yet responded
 Message 38 by NoNukes, posted 12-21-2017 11:48 AM xongsmith has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 58 (826063)
12-21-2017 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by xongsmith
12-21-2017 10:14 AM


NCE has been something of an asshole lately

I got a lot going on in RL and there's a couple people here who I just plainly dislike.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by xongsmith, posted 12-21-2017 10:14 AM xongsmith has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 58 (826066)
12-21-2017 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Percy
12-21-2017 8:50 AM


libertarian "every-man-for-himself"-ism

So that's a strawman and not worth addressing.

the success of national health care systems in other countries,

What about it?

the example of Opdivo

Should the government pay for it? That depends on the situation. Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

your sacrifice of the realities of how to provide fair and decent healthcare on the pyre of your antagonism toward government

I just don't want the government in charge of my healthcare. But I'll pay taxes to support a national health care system. I don't want to be forced into something, tho. And I don't like the sound of single-anything. Options, not force.

and why government has to be part of the solution.

By all means, have the government be a part of the solution. But it doesn't have to be the solution.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Percy, posted 12-21-2017 8:50 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Percy, posted 12-22-2017 9:58 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded
 Message 56 by Taq, posted 01-17-2018 5:21 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10739
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


(2)
Message 38 of 58 (826067)
12-21-2017 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by xongsmith
12-21-2017 10:14 AM


NCE has been something of an asshole lately and should be feeling a sting of some kind.

I think the name calling stuff is unnecessary. NCE's politics are sometimes difficult to defend without leaving the impression that the holder of said opinions is soulless and self-centered. In this kind of lefty filled environment, somebody is bound to point out that exact point.

Perhaps that is why some of our more right leaning posters adopt a "hit and run" style where they post bombs and don't hang around for a rebuttal. NCE does not do that. I give him props for that at least. I imagine that being a libertarian or a conservative poster has some similarities to being a Creationist poster here.

We want folks to express their opinions here. I do at least. Because I want to understand the mindset that underlies those opinions. But if there really isn't much more mindset behind those positions than what a surface review suggests, I want to know that too.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by xongsmith, posted 12-21-2017 10:14 AM xongsmith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Percy, posted 12-22-2017 10:57 AM NoNukes has responded
 Message 50 by Percy, posted 01-17-2018 7:59 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17409
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 39 of 58 (826099)
12-22-2017 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by New Cat's Eye
12-21-2017 11:42 AM


New Cat's Eye writes:

libertarian "every-man-for-himself"-ism

So that's a strawman and not worth addressing.

No, not a strawman. It's merely an exaggeration for emphasis to put the point across forcefully.

Even if you feel the characterization unfair, the question still arises of why you so often seem to care so little for your fellow man, and often seem to make a special effort to indicate just how little you do care. We live in a society where the better off my neighbor is the better off I am. From your point of view maybe the neighbor forced to move because of health related expenses is just replaced by another neighbor and maybe you just say, "So what!", but in the broad view every time it happens the quality and vitality of our society slips down a notch.

As Rrhain said, whatever you've achieved in life you did not do by yourself. You did it as part of a community. Without that community you would have accomplished nothing. It is in your best interests, in everyone's best interests, whether you realize it or not, that that community be as strong as possible. It is high irony that you claim credit for your accomplishments while casting disdain at the very community that made them possible.

the success of national health care systems in other countries,

What about it?

You mean what about the incredibly obvious, that the example of many western democracies is that national health care systems work? We have a national health care system that works right in our own country. It's called Medicare.

your sacrifice of the realities of how to provide fair and decent healthcare on the pyre of your antagonism toward government

I just don't want the government in charge of my healthcare. But I'll pay taxes to support a national health care system. I don't want to be forced into something, tho. And I don't like the sound of single-anything. Options, not force.

This sounds promising, sort of, but I'd rather have some indication that you understand that a healthy community is a stronger more vital, more vibrant and more productive community, and that it is in the community's best interests to insure that everyone has access to affordable healthcare.

and why government has to be part of the solution.

By all means, have the government be a part of the solution. But it doesn't have to be the solution.

Medicare is a single payer system mostly subcontracted out to insurance companies. The ACA has individual markets that are run by insurance companies. I think you're the victim of fearmongering.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-21-2017 11:42 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17409
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 40 of 58 (826103)
12-22-2017 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by NoNukes
12-21-2017 11:48 AM


NoNukes writes:

NCE's politics are sometimes difficult to defend without leaving the impression that the holder of said opinions is soulless and self-centered.

I don't think it's an impression but a fact that New Cat's Eye is uncaring and self-centered. He doesn't realize that any successes he experiences are the results of opportunities presented to him by his community, and the quality of those opportunities are a reflection of the strength of his community. This is true for everyone

Every community possesses diversity. It has the smartest and the dumbest, the healthiest and the sickest, the richest and the poorest, the strongest and the weakest. We must care about the dumbest, the sickest, the poorest and the weakest because they are also part of our community, and the worse off they are the worse off is our community.

The strength of communities is why hermits leave behind caves while civilizations leave behind pyramids, Parthenons and Colosseums.

In this kind of lefty filled environment, somebody is bound to point out that exact point.

Yes. At some point one is filled with the urgent need to reach out and shake someone out of their fog, metaphorically speaking.

Perhaps that is why some of our more right leaning posters adopt a "hit and run" style where they post bombs and don't hang around for a rebuttal. NCE does not do that.

When pissed off New Cat's Eye's MO is to reply rather than ignore or run, but his replies are not better than ignoring or running. His replies can become things like "Being retarded?" and "I have no interest in discussing with that person," not to mention the incredibly self-centered, "I got a lot going on in RL and there's a couple people here who I just plainly dislike," as if no one else here has anything going on in real life or encounters people here they do not like.

We want folks to express their opinions here. I do at least. Because I want to understand the mindset that underlies those opinions. But if there really isn't much more mindset behind those positions than what a surface review suggests, I want to know that too.

Whether New Cat's Eye stays or goes is his choice. I of course would much rather he stay, but I do not think we should censor or soften our voice for fear that he, or anyone else we may disagree with, will leave. This site does seem to somehow have many more liberals than conservatives, and this can result in pile-ons, but neither can we forget the old saw about how a lie travels the world while the truth is still tying its shoes (not from Twain, by the way). In these times where our own president is making an institution of lying, when addressing his followers or fellow travelers it is important that the truth be stated as often and as strongly as possible. It is instructive that when New Cat's Eye encountered Rrhain's plain talk that in effect he *did* ignore and he *did* run.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by NoNukes, posted 12-21-2017 11:48 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by NoNukes, posted 12-23-2017 2:24 PM Percy has responded
 Message 43 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-15-2018 1:54 PM Percy has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10739
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 41 of 58 (826167)
12-23-2017 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Percy
12-22-2017 10:57 AM


Whether New Cat's Eye stays or goes is his choice. I of course would much rather he stay, but I do not think we should censor or soften our voice for fear that he, or anyone else we may disagree with, will leave.

I did not mean to create the impression that we should avoid expressing our opinions beyond suggesting that we not resort to mere name-calling.

Your post has given me some things to think about. I wrote some quick sentences in response, but I deleted them. I probably won't get around to posting anything.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Percy, posted 12-22-2017 10:57 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Percy, posted 12-23-2017 3:39 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17409
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 42 of 58 (826172)
12-23-2017 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by NoNukes
12-23-2017 2:24 PM


NoNukes writes:

Your post has given me some things to think about. I wrote some quick sentences in response, but I deleted them. I probably won't get around to posting anything.

I think many people, and certainly me, often write things they never send. Well, you usually let me have it straight as you see it. Maybe I came on too strong, but I have little patience for people who don't understand that humankind didn't start making rapid advances until we developed the technology (farming) to make possible living together in large communities. Even Thoreau built his cabin using the products of civilization (often second hand), like shingles, bricks, nails, etc.

Conservatives like small government but don't recognize how much richer we are when we work together instead of dividing ourselves into little self-reliant fiefdoms. Certainly self-reliance is a good thing, but as protection against possible necessity, not as a way of life. By pooling our resources in the form of collected taxes we are capable of our greatest accomplishments, like nationwide polio vaccinations, clean environment, the interstate highway system, social security, Medicare, Medicaid, constrain the inequities and misbehaviors of capitalism, and nationwide electrification.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by NoNukes, posted 12-23-2017 2:24 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Phat, posted 01-16-2018 5:07 PM Percy has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 58 (826996)
01-15-2018 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Percy
12-22-2017 10:57 AM


I don't think it's an impression but a fact that New Cat's Eye is uncaring and self-centered.

So much for Rule 10.

Whether New Cat's Eye stays or goes is his choice.

I'll say... and ignore the personal attacks.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Percy, posted 12-22-2017 10:57 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Percy, posted 01-15-2018 7:53 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17409
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 44 of 58 (827025)
01-15-2018 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by New Cat's Eye
01-15-2018 1:54 PM


New Cat's Eye writes:

I don't think it's an impression but a fact that New Cat's Eye is uncaring and self-centered.

So much for Rule 10.

You don't get to express opinions that are uncaring and self-centered and then expect people to ignore that your opinions possess those qualities. It would be like not noting the ignorance in someone's claim that more massive objects fall faster. My and NoNukes comments were not out-of-the-blue ad hominem but were based precisely on things you've said. I notice you don't deny that you're uncaring and self-centered, nor do you address anything else in my detailed reply in Message 40.

Whether New Cat's Eye stays or goes is his choice.

I'll say... and ignore the personal attacks.

It would only be a personal attack if it were untrue. If you want people to say nicer things about the opinions you express here then express nicer opinions. Basically your position is that you don't care whether people can afford decent healthcare as long as you've got yours. Don't I have that right? Or am I retarded, or maybe you have no interest in discussing with me anymore, or maybe you just have a lot going on in RL right now and you plainly dislike some people here, and all this excuses your shotgun load of poorly thought out posts today.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-15-2018 1:54 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-16-2018 8:54 AM Percy has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 58 (827038)
01-16-2018 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Percy
01-15-2018 7:53 PM


You don't get to express opinions that are uncaring and self-centered and then expect people to ignore that your opinions possess those qualities.

But you don't say that my position is uncaring. You say that I, personally, am uncaring.

As you explain in the rule ("Usually, in a well-conducted debate, speakers are either emotionally uncommitted or can preserve sufficient detachment to maintain a coolly academic approach."), opinions expressed in debate are not necessarily personally held opions of the debater.

You can have the debate while leaving the person out of it - and it's better that way.

I notice you don't deny that you're uncaring and self-centered,

There's no need to dignify those lies with a remark.

It would only be a personal attack if it were untrue.

They're personal attacks.

If you want people to say nicer things about the opinions you express here then express nicer opinions.

Oh, I see. Only nice opinions are worth exploring kindly here. Hmm. Maybe I will leave then. The debates lately seem to just be getting denigrated into irrelevant pedantry anyways.

Basically your position is that you don't care whether people can afford decent healthcare as long as you've got yours. Don't I have that right?

No, not even close.

Or am I retarded,

No, you're tribal. If I don't agree with you then I must be taking the exact opposite position

Have fun with the strawman. I'm not going to waste my time pulling it apart.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Percy, posted 01-15-2018 7:53 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Percy, posted 01-16-2018 1:58 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded
 Message 47 by NoNukes, posted 01-16-2018 4:32 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded
 Message 57 by Taq, posted 01-17-2018 6:04 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
Prev12
3
4Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2018