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Author Topic:   Between A Rock & A Hard Place
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1 of 67 (514708)
07-11-2009 10:06 AM


I don't even know what I believe anymore, except that I know that I DO believe that Jesus is alive, was and is Gods character and died for all of our collective sins and imperfections. I have no problems with Jesus or with God. I DO have problems with the Bible being inerrant (without any mistakes, errors, or human goofs) chiefly because it just doesn't make sense to me.
My critics tell me that my brand of Christianity is flawed because it implies that some people are special. Chosen. Set apart from the rest of humanity. They hint at the fact that this idea is actually a doctrine of humans who sought to control others through this belief.
Additionally, I have been told by more than a few educated scientifically minded critical thinkers that the idea of a Young Earth, a Global Flood, and a literal Talking Snake are just too ridiculous to be embraced by any rational thinker. They hint at the idea that I should question the reasons behind believing in a perfect Bible when evidence clearly shows the Bible and the characters contained within are the fodder of a story and not of actual facts.
Of course, they question Jesus divinity as well and I simply will NOT go there.
They have me thinking, though. I DO believe that God expects me to think and to question everything that I am taught, and I DO believe that God won't hold it against me for doing so.
The flip side of this is that I also don't believe them when they go so far as to say that religion is all man-made and that the stories are less than perfect. Like I said, I don't know whether to be on one side, the other side, or no side at all. I just know that I need to pray and allow the Holy Spirit to help me sort it all out.
Need I say Faith & Belief?

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Phage0070, posted 07-11-2009 4:53 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
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 Message 5 by Straggler, posted 07-11-2009 6:33 PM Phat has replied
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 Message 15 by ICANT, posted 07-12-2009 9:54 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 18 by Blue Jay, posted 07-12-2009 10:53 PM Phat has replied
 Message 19 by anglagard, posted 07-12-2009 10:57 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
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 Message 60 by Phat, posted 07-11-2017 2:08 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 28 of 67 (514855)
07-13-2009 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Blue Jay
07-12-2009 10:53 PM


Synopsis
Phage0070 writes:
If you don't believe that the Bible is inerrant because it does not make sense to you, why does an admirable being that kills its own son out of anger at someone else make sense to you? What makes belief in Jesus and God more sensible than the Bible?
The God that I believe in is, to me, alive and personal. Never mind that some may say I made Him up....I believe that His Spirit lives within me. That is the only aspect that I could be said to have taken from the Bible. I don't even think about the O.T. vengeful God, or any of that stuff as written, since I don't understand it. Its a disconnect with my ideas about God.
Hyroglyphx writes:
you've been asking redundant questions for over four years and you apparently still don't have the answer you're looking for.
Actually, my faith is stronger now than it was four years ago. Granted, my belief in a personal relationship with God is illogical and unverifiable, but I chose to take a stand on this particular uncertainty and not on others.
Hyroglyphx writes:
what does this all benefit you? What are you getting out of this deal, where he gets all praise and worship for what exactly? What does he do?
If I believe that God is wiser than we all are, has an ultimate plan, and allows us to be part of the plan without fully understanding or knowing it all, why would I care what He gets and what I get? All I can say is that I trust God as I understand Him and that I am unafraid to question human wisdom and dogma. To me, my belief that God is real is the only absolute that I have chosen, and the only belief I wont minimize and throw away.
Straggler writes:
But why do you not agree? Weakness of argument? In which case what aspects of the arguments put forwards do you dispute?
I find it uncomfortable when humans are so confidant that they have solved the question so easily and logically. To put it bluntly, I don't trust human wisdom that does not recognize an authority greater than itself. (assuming of course that such an authority exists)
purpledawn writes:
Christianity is a religion that tries to control.
Yes, and I defy human authority by nature. I am the Captain of my own damn ship!
purpledawn writes:
Understand that everything changes with time. Even God.
Peg writes:
Christianity is about 'YOUR' relationship with God. This is something that every single person on earth can have if they want it. It doesnt make us special if we have it, but it does put us in line for everlasting life.
If God foreknows who will and will not choose Him, does this fact not make Him responsible?
ICANT writes:
Phat you know what you believe.
You are just not willing to accept it.
How do you know what I do and do not accept? I just told you I accepted Jesus. Do you expect me to accept the whole Bible without questioning why I accept it? I don't believe in blind faith.
themasterdebator writes:
So then God did not intend the Bible for all people? Only a specific audience and a specific time?
The O.T. is intended mainly for the Jewish Theocratic Kingdom while the N.T. after the Gospels is intended for contemporary folks.
Bluejay writes:
I no longer like to be associated with many religious communities, conventions and ideas. The entire religious atmosphere feels stifling and stagnant, and the learning processes I am taught and expected to subscribe to simply do not make sense to me.
Me too, although I still hold out belief in a supernatural God. To give that up would reduce Christianity to some humanistic do-good philosophy, which is not enough for me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Blue Jay, posted 07-12-2009 10:53 PM Blue Jay has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Phage0070, posted 07-13-2009 1:40 PM Phat has replied
 Message 43 by ICANT, posted 07-14-2009 4:48 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 46 of 67 (515076)
07-15-2009 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Phage0070
07-13-2009 1:40 PM


Re: Synopsis
Phage0070 writes:
Your willingness to accept something has no bearing on its existence.
Keep in mind, however, that your passion to deny something also has no bearing on its existence.
I will grant that God cannot be proven, yet would be cognizant about confidently proclaiming His non-existence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Phage0070, posted 07-13-2009 1:40 PM Phage0070 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 47 of 67 (515077)
07-15-2009 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by ICANT
07-14-2009 4:48 PM


Re: Synopsis
I CANT writes:
You may believe but you have never committed proven by your own testimony.
Because to me, your idea of commit means to no longer ask questions. You expect me to take a leap of faith and no longer question anything about Dogma or tradition.
Trust me, when I first got "saved" I never questioned anything. God has since prompted me that its OK to do so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by ICANT, posted 07-14-2009 4:48 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by ICANT, posted 07-15-2009 11:32 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 50 of 67 (515248)
07-16-2009 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by ICANT
07-15-2009 11:32 AM


Questions,Doubts, and Conclusions
I CANT writes:
The things listed below I do not question because the Scripture says:
In Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."
So I take it you never dare to question scripture. What makes you so sure it is inerrant?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by ICANT, posted 07-15-2009 11:32 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by ICANT, posted 07-16-2009 9:32 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 52 of 67 (515329)
07-17-2009 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by ICANT
07-16-2009 9:32 PM


Re: Questions,Doubts, and Conclusions
Please clarify. I asked you what was so wrong with questioning scripture. First of all, how can we be so sure that scripture is inerrant?
After all, God knows me better than I know myself. I highly doubt whether God would be angry at me for using my brain.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by ICANT, posted 07-16-2009 9:32 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by ICANT, posted 07-17-2009 9:32 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 59 of 67 (718065)
02-04-2014 6:38 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Straggler
07-11-2009 6:33 PM


Prayer as Therapy
Straggler writes:
If praying is a road only to your own beliefs then how is praying going to do anything other than re-inforce your already held beliefs by confirming them?
I look at prayer this way: It causes me to open my mind and heart to a voice,belief, or unction that is contrary to my own. For instance, say I have an ongoing fight with an adversary. Perhaps I believe this adversary to be evil---perhaps not--but at the very least I despise this adversary and seek to win any and all future encounters with them.
In my prayer, I ask God to help me...and I also find myself praying to see things from the adversarial point of view. Intuitively I know that this is the best way to solve the subtle diplomacy of resolution with this adversary.
Looked at another way, its almost as if in order to defeat Satan we almost have to see how he thinks and why he thinks the way he does. upon deeper examination, I have often found that satan is simply my own ego within me...seeking to dominate another person. Prayer could be seen to be a form of meditative introspection. God is simply the therapist...prodding us to go deeper within ourselves and asking questions that give us the opportunity to confront our biases and prejudices.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Straggler, posted 07-11-2009 6:33 PM Straggler has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 60 of 67 (814654)
07-11-2017 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
07-11-2009 10:06 AM


Between A Rock & A Hard Place Remix
2009 Phat writes:
I don't even know what I believe anymore, except that I know that I DO believe that Jesus is alive, was and is Gods character and died for all of our collective sins and imperfections. I have no problems with Jesus or with God. I DO have problems with the Bible being inerrant (without any mistakes, errors, or human goofs) chiefly because it just doesn't make sense to me.
My critics tell me that my brand of Christianity is flawed because it implies that some people are special. Chosen. Set apart from the rest of humanity. They hint at the fact that this idea is actually a doctrine of humans who sought to control others through this belief.
Additionally, I have been told by more than a few educated scientifically minded critical thinkers that the idea of a Young Earth, a Global Flood, and a literal Talking Snake are just too ridiculous to be embraced by any rational thinker. They hint at the idea that I should question the reasons behind believing in a perfect Bible when evidence clearly shows the Bible and the characters contained within are the fodder of a story and not of actual facts.
Of course, they question Jesus divinity as well and I simply will NOT go there.
They have me thinking, though. I DO believe that God expects me to think and to question everything that I am taught, and I DO believe that God won't hold it against me for doing so.
The flip side of this is that I also don't believe them when they go so far as to say that religion is all man-made and that the stories are less than perfect. Like I said, I don't know whether to be on one side, the other side, or no side at all. I just know that I need to pray and allow the Holy Spirit to help me sort it all out.
That was in 2009. I have learned a lot since then, but my beliefs remain at roughly the same level. I am more skeptical of organized religion and of teachings than I used to be, however. I DO believe that if i pray for wisdom I will receive it, however.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 07-11-2009 10:06 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Tangle, posted 07-11-2017 2:21 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 62 of 67 (814657)
07-11-2017 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Tangle
07-11-2017 2:21 PM


Re: Between A Rock & A Hard Place Remix
I answered this also in 2009. Post 59.
2009 Phat writes:
I look at prayer this way: It causes me to open my mind and heart to a voice,belief, or unction that is contrary to my own. For instance, say I have an ongoing fight with an adversary. Perhaps I believe this adversary to be evil---perhaps not--but at the very least I despise this adversary and seek to win any and all future encounters with them.
In my prayer, I ask God to help me...and I also find myself praying to see things from the adversarial point of view. Intuitively I know that this is the best way to solve the subtle diplomacy of resolution with this adversary.
Looked at another way, its almost as if in order to defeat Satan we almost have to see how he thinks and why he thinks the way he does. upon deeper examination, I have often found that satan is simply my own ego within me...seeking to dominate another person. Prayer could be seen to be a form of meditative introspection. God is simply the therapist...prodding us to go deeper within ourselves and asking questions that give us the opportunity to confront our biases and prejudices.
Secular arguments could just as easily drop the God-in-me and satan-in-me approach and go with ID, Ego, and SuperEgo.
The keywords towards such an approach as prayer are introspection and mindfulness

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Tangle, posted 07-11-2017 2:21 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Tangle, posted 07-11-2017 2:59 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 64 of 67 (814661)
07-11-2017 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Tangle
07-11-2017 2:59 PM


Re: Between A Rock & A Hard Place Remix
You surely are something else! As Groucho might have said, "I resemble that remark!"
I'm a stubborn one, though. I see no internal evidence that prayer has failed me. I am changing every month, though you may argue that the change is happening regardless of prayer and is due to actions I have taken. I won't argue that one.
Why the obsession or passion at eliminating religion and beliefs, however? I can understand you not embracing it yourself...but your proselytizing of evidence and logic is taken to an extreme, in my opinion.
all that stuff is just as big a load of bollox as the god stuff. Just people making stuff up.
So you are saying that Freud made stuff up also? Interesting....
Edited by Phat, : added features!
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Tangle, posted 07-11-2017 2:59 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Tangle, posted 07-11-2017 4:22 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 66 of 67 (816992)
08-14-2017 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Tangle
07-11-2017 2:59 PM


Re: Between A Rock & A Hard Place Remix
Ignore all the crap - get on with a sensible life, stop obsessing about yourself - go do something useful instead.
See? You really are an encourager!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Tangle, posted 07-11-2017 2:59 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 67 of 67 (826227)
12-26-2017 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Tangle
07-11-2017 2:21 PM


Re: Between A Rock & A Hard Place Remix
Tangle writes:
...since you've been praying for answers for at least 8 years and not got any, why do you still believe that you will? Can't God work as fast as this forum? Are you just sat in his in tray?
You mean am I in the IN Box waiting to be processed?
I have learned a lot the past 8 years. I have learned, among other things, to ask more and better questions rather than simply expecting easy answers.
In 1993 when I first thought that I got saved I thought then that I had my answer. I have moved on from that conclusion but have not entirely discarded it. Little did I know then that that one simple event would lead to more learning and questioning rather than security and complacency.
EvC Forum helps me in this regard. Were you all to agree with me i would never grow.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Tangle, posted 07-11-2017 2:21 PM Tangle has not replied

  
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