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Author Topic:   The Tension of Faith
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1067 of 1540 (824770)
12-03-2017 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1064 by jar
12-03-2017 12:46 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
Jar writes:
I will tell you I don't know if wine can be turned into blood.
You know absolutely for sure that wine can't be changed into blood by someone talking at it. You know that there is no possible mechanism for it. You know it to be utterly impossible.
I know I don't know how to do it but if there was evidence that it happened my position would be "It happened but I don't know how!" not "It's a miracle."
That's because you know that miracles don't happen. It would seem like a magic trick or a fraud or somesuch. But if all of a sudden ever chalice in the land turned into blood and there was no other possible explanation you'd be left with the miracle.
Sorry but you have not presented any reason to think it a miracle other then you believe it is impossible.
It would be a miracle because what has happened is impossible.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1064 by jar, posted 12-03-2017 12:46 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1068 by jar, posted 12-03-2017 3:13 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 1069 by Phat, posted 12-03-2017 3:48 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1070 of 1540 (824778)
12-03-2017 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1068 by jar
12-03-2017 3:13 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
jar writes:
Too funny.
This has become your tell.
No, if it happened then it is certainly not impossible.
If the impossible happens we call it a miracle. As you know.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1068 by jar, posted 12-03-2017 3:13 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1071 by jar, posted 12-03-2017 4:49 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1074 of 1540 (824784)
12-03-2017 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1072 by jar
12-03-2017 4:52 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
ringo writes:
Miracles involve some supernatural intervention but I cannot think of anyway any supernatural intervention could be seen, determined or evidenced.
Your failure of imagination is not relevant.
A supernatural intervention - what you agree would be a miracle - must involve intervention in the natural world. Any supernatural intervention would create an observable event. A child could tell that a miracle is an event not explicable by natural or scientific laws and could give you an example of a dozen possibilities in a minute.
But you're fully aware of all this so I guess that's all for now.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1072 by jar, posted 12-03-2017 4:52 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1076 by jar, posted 12-03-2017 5:46 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1100 of 1540 (824959)
12-05-2017 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1099 by GDR
12-05-2017 3:56 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
GDR writes:
In that case then so are miracles, (on the assumption that they really happened), are a part of our physical universe because they effect it as well.
This continues to be a weird argument.
If miracles existed, of course they'd be part of our physical universe; if they existed outside our physical universe we could never know anything about them. How could we? And anything that exists in our physical universe can be detected, as can dark stuff.
Of course the position is moot until you present us with a miracle to have a look at.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1099 by GDR, posted 12-05-2017 3:56 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1101 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-05-2017 4:19 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(3)
Message 1103 of 1540 (824965)
12-05-2017 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1101 by New Cat's Eye
12-05-2017 4:19 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
NCE writes:
How do you know there aren't undetectable things in our physical universe?
If we couldn't detect them they wouldn't look like a miracle now would they.....

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1101 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-05-2017 4:19 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1110 of 1540 (825038)
12-06-2017 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1109 by Faith
12-06-2017 4:53 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
Faith writes:
That's it and it's good evidence but you are free to pretend it isn't.
It's 2,000 year old hearsay written by unidentified people at least 30 years after the supposed facts who were politically and religiously motivated.
It's hard to imagine worse 'evidence'; it doesn't even qualify.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1109 by Faith, posted 12-06-2017 4:53 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1131 of 1540 (825100)
12-08-2017 2:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1130 by GDR
12-07-2017 6:35 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
GDR writes:
Looks pretty miraculous to me.
That's not the test of a miracle.
The fact that it doesn't look miraculous to some people who actually study these things should be the clue. As should the fact that lightening and a million other naturally explained events (like speciation to pick a Christian biggy) seemed like miracles to until relatively recently should also make you think.
The not yet fully explained is not necessarily miraculous - it's a god of the gaps argument. If you rely on them your argument retreats further and further away as we learn the truth.
The miracles we normally mean when we talk of miracles are those in the bible or those claimed by popes to create saints or by healer.
The big philosophical problems like why there's something rather than nothing need to wait - mostly because we don't know what 'nothing' is yet; it seems like a human invention.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1130 by GDR, posted 12-07-2017 6:35 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1132 by Phat, posted 12-08-2017 8:58 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1134 of 1540 (825116)
12-08-2017 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1132 by Phat
12-08-2017 8:58 AM


Re: the nature of evidence
Phat writes:
It will be a miracle if I even have any faith in this whole argument which raises science up to be the infinite questioner and judge of what should be believed and accepted.
Science has proven to be the best way of explaining the world around us. If there's another world somewhere else we have no way of knowing about it - including faith and believe.
Some people require a belief in at least some form of certainty.
Yes but it's a false certainty, built on nothing. It should give you no certainty at all.
Science was never intended to answer philosophical questions about faith and belief.
A tool can be used for many purposes. One thing science is doing is clearing away the scrub that any god could be hiding in. That's why Faith is so upset with it and has to reject it.
It's also finding the parts of our very natural brain where beliefs reside and why we have them.
It's also very good at defunking much of the bollox inside religious belief itself souls, contraception, discrimination, miraculous sacraments etc etc.
Science has only just got started, you aint seen nothin' yet.
In any case, science is not equipped to conclude anything.
wtf??? You always surprise me with these bizarre and totally wrong statements. I suppose you must harbour these false ideas to protect your beliefs.
Science's whole job, its whole purpose is to form conclusions, to know stuff, to create knowledge. Sheesh....

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1132 by Phat, posted 12-08-2017 8:58 AM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1218 of 1540 (825228)
12-10-2017 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1214 by Faith
12-10-2017 9:50 AM


Re: definitions and semantics, supernatural, miracle etc.
Faith writes:
I'm surprised anyone would think [any different to me].
By now, this should really not be a surprise.
A 'miracle' is something that breaks physical laws - it's super natural. It is NOT confined only to the works of the Christian god. Miracles are present in most god mythologies.
'Supernatural' is not confined to the Christian god either and it DOES include spooks, demons, ghouls, ghosts, angels, devils, spectres, apparitions, phantoms, wraiths and all things woo.
If you want to stop being surprised by us, you need use words in the same way as those of us outside your personal bubble.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1214 by Faith, posted 12-10-2017 9:50 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1220 by Faith, posted 12-10-2017 10:34 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1223 of 1540 (825234)
12-10-2017 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1220 by Faith
12-10-2017 10:34 AM


Re: definitions and semantics, supernatural, miracle etc.
Faith writes:
The kinds of miracles done by God in the OT and Jesus in the NT are not anything like the "miracles" done by the demonic "gods" of Hinduism or other religions.
Oh sure the miracles of the Christian god are somehow super-supernatural; better than any other god's miracles.
Here's a 5 second google explaining that Hindu gods are more miraculous than the Christian god. For a start there's more of them. Everybody's belief is better than every other belief. Weird how that works - almost like it's been made up.
quote:
Hindus are the only race in the world to categorise the miracles and gave examples for every kind of miracle in the mythologies or in the life of hundreds of saints.
Though we hear about miracles done by other religious leaders, Hindus divided them into eight crystal clear types. They took this branch of science more seriously than others.
Siddhar is one who attained Siddhi i.e. special psychic and supernatural powers, which has been defined to be eight fold in the science of yoga.
1.Anima : power of becoming the size of an atom and entering into smaalest life.
2.Mahima : power of becoming mighty and co-extensive with the universe.
3.Laghima : capacity to be light, though big in size
4.Garima : capacity to be heavy though seeming small in size
5.Prapthi : capacity to enter all the worlds from Brahmaloka to Pathalam
6.Prakasyam : power of disembodying and entering into other bodies and going to heaven and enjoying whatever one wants from one place
7.Isithvam : having the creative power of God and control over the sun, the moon and the elements
8.Vasithvam : power of control over kings and Gods.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1220 by Faith, posted 12-10-2017 10:34 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1224 by Faith, posted 12-10-2017 11:03 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1225 of 1540 (825237)
12-10-2017 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1224 by Faith
12-10-2017 11:03 AM


Re: definitions and semantics, supernatural, miracle etc.
Faith writes:
Why on earth do you even consider such nonsense?.
That's a question I am increasingly asking myself.
Am I supposed to take seriously anyone claiming that their god is better at miracles than any other? The angels on a pin head stuff died long ago surely? Apparently not in your bubble.
Of course if you could invite all the gods to a football field we could have a god-off. It would be pretty televisual and we'd get a result one way or another. But until then I think the point is moot.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1224 by Faith, posted 12-10-2017 11:03 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1227 by Phat, posted 12-10-2017 11:35 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1414 of 1540 (826097)
12-22-2017 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1413 by Percy
12-22-2017 8:33 AM


Re: Regrowing a Leg
Percy writes:
Since the question of why health-related miracles always involve regaining health and not regaining limbs
Just so it's on the table, the reason limbs never grow back is because miracles don't happen, prayers don't work and if there is a god, he's not the interventionist kind.
Maybe it's just too obvious.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1413 by Percy, posted 12-22-2017 8:33 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1469 of 1540 (826309)
12-28-2017 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1467 by Faith
12-28-2017 1:45 PM


Re: Tension from Faith
faith writes:
Interesting. Yesterday a headline said Stephen Hawking believes we have 100 years left on this planet.
600. And last year he said between 1,000 and 10,000 and it's about overpopulation, climate change and statistical probability of asteroid strikes etc etc.
He's as wrong as all other soothsayers.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1467 by Faith, posted 12-28-2017 1:45 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1470 by Faith, posted 12-28-2017 2:03 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1503 of 1540 (826911)
01-14-2018 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1502 by New Cat's Eye
01-14-2018 9:07 AM


Re: Tension from Faith
NCE writes:
Nobody but you can know if you really have hate or not.
Just as a point of information, English law can decide whether you hate or not
quote:
Under section 146 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003, the court must treat as an aggravating factor the fact that:
an offender demonstrated hostility towards the victim based on his or her disability, sexual orientation or transgender identity (or presumed disability, sexual orientation or transgender identity); or
the offence was motivated by hostility towards persons who have a particular disability, who are of a particular sexual orientation or who are transgender.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1502 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-14-2018 9:07 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1504 by jar, posted 01-14-2018 11:23 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 1514 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-15-2018 9:29 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1505 of 1540 (826913)
01-14-2018 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1504 by jar
01-14-2018 11:23 AM


Re: Tension from Faith
Jar writes:
How sad that English Law has fallen to such depths.
....that it defends minority and vulnerable groups you mean? We're quite proud of it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1504 by jar, posted 01-14-2018 11:23 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1506 by Phat, posted 01-14-2018 11:59 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 1510 by jar, posted 01-14-2018 12:43 PM Tangle has replied

  
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