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Author Topic:   A Closer Look at Pat Robertson
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2644 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 151 of 160 (290163)
02-24-2006 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by FreddyFlash
02-24-2006 4:22 PM


Re: the wiki article seems bogus
I shall assume that you believe the government has the authority to use reason and persuasion to convince some one to follow Christ or some other religious authority.

How in the world did you come up with that assumption when I clearly advocate a separation of civil and ecclesiastical affairs?

I still am not clear on the solution in the event the King confounds his civil authority with his religious power?

You follow God and suffer persecution in such instances.

How can an abstract concept like the government give thanks to God? Only individuals can give thanks to God.

Government is made up of people. Take Congress. Congress gives thanks to God officially with the opening of every legislative session and has done so throughout our nation's history. That's fully Constitutional. Making members pray or believe though would not be.

How do we distinguish between a public official or the government acknowledging God and establishing a duty to God?

That depends on whether they do it as part of their official capacity in the name of the government.

Why did God give man a conscience?

A conscience is an aspect of the greater awareness of man and his ability to make a choice. I suggest you ask God about it, but I would say part of the answer is He wants us to know right and wrong and for us to willingly choose to do right.

Is it the right to the free exercise of relgion according to the dictates of God, or according to the advice of the government?

It's as much a command and precept as a personal right, and it's according to the dictates of God, meaning it is God's intention for mankind.

Does “public praise for God” include praise prompted by the government?

"Public praise" does not refer to the public in this context, but to the government itself. So the question does not make sense.

What is the difference between a government mention of God and an establishment of of the duty to believe in God?

2 different things entirely.

Do you know that the Chaplains to the First U. S. Congress were paid less than messengers and janitors and that all they ever did for the First Congress in two years was perform one prayer service in a church?

And your point is? Heck, I bet there are chaplains and ministers that would do it for free.

Why do you suppose the Great General toned it down so much the second time around? Do you suppose the tall tale about James Madison and T. J. kicking Washington’s butt into line on the Separation of Church and State, is really true?

No, I think Washington was entirely above having to tone it down for anyone, except whatever he felt internally was right. The idea that Jmes Madison and Jefferson "kicking his butt" is sheer lunacy, and in fact, Jefferson in today's standards according to some historians practically committed treason in opposing the Executive branch while serving in the Cabinet. Washington, as you will remember, was on the other side of the fence with Adams from Jefferson, and he was not intimidated or moved by Jefferson's love for the French revolution, and Jefferson himself moved away from his original stance on that regardless, as the French revolution proved to be overly violent.

Perhaps it's over-reliance on secularist thought was the reason it went off the deep end?

But regardless, there was no serious challenge to Washington based on his references to God.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by FreddyFlash, posted 02-24-2006 4:22 PM FreddyFlash has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by AdminAsgara, posted 02-24-2006 5:23 PM randman has not yet responded
 Message 154 by FreddyFlash, posted 02-24-2006 6:41 PM randman has responded

  
AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 47 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 152 of 160 (290166)
02-24-2006 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by randman
02-24-2006 5:08 PM


Subtitle garbage
The subtitle of Re: the wiki article seems bogus has been hanging around here since Message 28. Somehow I don't think we are still discussing this particular article.

PLEASE everyone, pay attention to your subtitles, and the next one to answer, please change it.

AbE - original subtitle was created in AUG

This message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 02-24-2006 04:24 PM


AdminAsgara Queen of the Universe

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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 151 by randman, posted 02-24-2006 5:08 PM randman has not yet responded

        
    Adminnemooseus
    Director
    Posts: 3843
    Joined: 09-26-2002


    Message 153 of 160 (290196)
    02-24-2006 6:34 PM
    Reply to: Message 150 by FreddyFlash
    02-24-2006 4:22 PM


    Notice to Freddy Flash
    Randman has received a "Post of the Month" nomination, with at least 2 "seconds". To a greater or lesser degree, this was to credit him with doing quality messages in responses to your much lower quality messages.

    Now, Randman has been a "problem child" in these parts, and we are all glad that he is doing better. That said, you are putting yourself in the position of "my messages make Randman look good".

    Bottom line - Let's try for better quality, not just A LOT OF QUESTIONS.

    Adminnemooseus

    ps: The "Re: the wiki article seems bogus" subtitle, as per AdminAsgara, does need to die.


    New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.

    Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 150 by FreddyFlash, posted 02-24-2006 4:22 PM FreddyFlash has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 155 by FreddyFlash, posted 02-24-2006 6:48 PM Adminnemooseus has not yet responded

        
    FreddyFlash
    Inactive Member


    Message 154 of 160 (290198)
    02-24-2006 6:41 PM
    Reply to: Message 151 by randman
    02-24-2006 5:08 PM


    Re: the wiki article seems bogus
    Dear Randman

    Ok. I shall not assume that you believe the government has the authority to use reason and persuasion to convince someone to follow Christ.

    How do we distinguish civil from ecclesiastical affairs? Where do we draw the line? What is the rule, the test or the principle?

    Do you know the First U. S. Congress never prayed to open its daily legislative sessions, or else they were too ashamed of it to put it in the official records?

    If God created the conscience of man to inform him of right and wrong, then shouldn’t a man submit to God his sense of right and wrong with respect to his duties to God, and ignore any Thanksgiving Proclamations from President Bush that include recommendations to pray or any other duties to the Almighty?

    Is it possible that God might dictate a specific religious duty to you but not dictate that same duty to me?

    Does the majority get to use the government to express its religion?

    Is it Constitution for the State of California to make a law requiring that each elementary school class recite the pledge of allegiance to the flag (which includes what could be reasonably viewed as an affirmation of belief in God) once each day?

    If I am like Isaac Backus and believe that God dictates that I may not acknowledge any government authority whatsoever over my religion (including the authority to advise me whether or not I have a duty to believe in God), does that mean I cannot participate with my fellow American in a patriotic ceremony on account of my religious sentiments?

    Fred


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 151 by randman, posted 02-24-2006 5:08 PM randman has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 156 by randman, posted 02-24-2006 7:26 PM FreddyFlash has responded

      
    FreddyFlash
    Inactive Member


    Message 155 of 160 (290200)
    02-24-2006 6:48 PM
    Reply to: Message 153 by Adminnemooseus
    02-24-2006 6:34 PM


    Re: Notice to Freddy Flash
    Dear Adminnemooseus:

    I shall strive for improvement, and not just ask questions.

    Thanks for the advice. I am new to this, so just slap me down if I violate your customs and traditions. I learn fast.

    Fred


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 153 by Adminnemooseus, posted 02-24-2006 6:34 PM Adminnemooseus has not yet responded

      
    randman 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 2644 days)
    Posts: 6367
    Joined: 05-26-2005


    Message 156 of 160 (290208)
    02-24-2006 7:26 PM
    Reply to: Message 154 by FreddyFlash
    02-24-2006 6:41 PM


    Adminnemooseus kills an irrelevant subtitle (shall I suspend anyone who "re's" this?)
    How do we distinguish civil from ecclesiastical affairs? Where do we draw the line? What is the rule, the test or the principle?

    That's be a whole thread, but suffice to say, it can and is done all the time.

    Do you know the First U. S. Congress never prayed to open its daily legislative sessions

    Can you substantiate that? Also, it's a moot point as they adopted the tradition of a Congressional chaplain to do that. Evidently, they were not ashamed to do so.

    If God created the conscience of man to inform him of right and wrong, then shouldn’t a man submit to God his sense of right and wrong with respect to his duties to God, and ignore any Thanksgiving Proclamations from President Bush that include recommendations to pray or any other duties to the Almighty?

    Uh, no,....and didn't we already cover this? Bush asking the nation to pray is a request not a law.

    Is it possible that God might dictate a specific religious duty to you but not dictate that same duty to me?

    Yes.

    Does the majority get to use the government to express its religion?

    That depends on the nature of the expression. The majority does get to use the government, imo, to express it's values, and some aspects of it's religion in the sense of recognizing God. It does not get to use the government to coerce people into one religion, or to restrict other religions.

    Is it Constitution for the State of California to make a law requiring that each elementary school class recite the pledge of allegiance to the flag (which includes what could be reasonably viewed as an affirmation of belief in God) once each day?

    Yes, although children should be allowed to not participate if it violates their belief.

    {Changed the damned "Re: the wiki article seems bogus" subtitle to "Adminnemooseus kills an irrelevant subtitle (shall I suspend anyone who "re's" this?)" - Adminnemooseus}

    This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 02-24-2006 07:33 PM


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 154 by FreddyFlash, posted 02-24-2006 6:41 PM FreddyFlash has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 157 by randman, posted 02-24-2006 7:35 PM randman has not yet responded
     Message 158 by FreddyFlash, posted 02-24-2006 9:22 PM randman has not yet responded

      
    randman 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 2644 days)
    Posts: 6367
    Joined: 05-26-2005


    Message 157 of 160 (290214)
    02-24-2006 7:35 PM
    Reply to: Message 156 by randman
    02-24-2006 7:26 PM


    sorry
    Forgot the admonition for a new title
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 156 by randman, posted 02-24-2006 7:26 PM randman has not yet responded

      
    FreddyFlash
    Inactive Member


    Message 158 of 160 (290232)
    02-24-2006 9:22 PM
    Reply to: Message 156 by randman
    02-24-2006 7:26 PM


    The perjury of Chief Justice Warren Burger
    Dear Randman:

    I read you to say that you have no rule, test or principle that enables you to distinguish civil from ecclesiastical affairs.

    Did God authorize President Bush to recommend prayer to us or does the President automatically share God's authority over his religion? Does the Constitution permit the President to recommend that we abolish infant baptism?

    Contrary to the perjury of Chief Justice Warren Burger and the propaganda of Justice Antonia Scalia, there is no evidence of opening prayers by the Chaplains to Congress in the official records of the daily proceedings and debates of the House of Representative or Senate of the First U. S. Congress; or the Second U. S. Congress; or the Third; or the Fourth or; the..............If you find such evidence please show me.

    Click this link to the first page of the Annals of Congress and turn the pages to see if there were opening prayers during the First U. S. Congress. Use peek to see how I shortened this link

    Click this link to the first page of the Journal of the House and turn the pages to see if there were opening prayers in the House during the First U. S. Congress. shortened link

    Click this link to the first page of the Journal of the Senate and turn the pages to see if there were opening prayers in the Senate during the First U. S. Congress. shortened link

    Fred

    This message has been edited by FreddyFlash, 02-24-2006 09:34 PM

    This message has been edited by AdminJar, 02-24-2006 08:40 PM


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 156 by randman, posted 02-24-2006 7:26 PM randman has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 10672
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 159 of 160 (826353)
    12-29-2017 9:42 AM


    From The Archive Graveyard
    I love old threads. The perspectives can be compared from what was happening then to what is happening now.

    Take this article from NPR:
    Trump Scorns Mainstream News, But Not The Christian Broadcasting Network

    Look at old Pat! Still living and breathing...and Trump cozying up to the evangelical voter base...

    Some quotes from the NPR article:

    Brody says many conservative Christians feel a kinship with Trump the outsider who's ridiculed by the elites. He says they see in Trump a nostalgia for a time when many white evangelicals felt American culture was more explicitly aligned with Christian values.

    "He, in essence, has become their ... moral crusader, in a way," Brody says. "Which is so wild that a guy like this would be in the role of moral crusader who would have ever thought Donald Trump, of all people, would have been that guy?"

    While Trump routinely scorns much of the mainstream press, he's been content to take his message directly to his base on social media, and on CBN.
    Trump knows how to market himself as a Populist, that's for sure. As for being a Christian? I see no evidence so far....

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

    Replies to this message:
     Message 160 by Taq, posted 12-29-2017 2:57 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Taq
    Member
    Posts: 7421
    Joined: 03-06-2009
    Member Rating: 2.2


    Message 160 of 160 (826385)
    12-29-2017 2:57 PM
    Reply to: Message 159 by Phat
    12-29-2017 9:42 AM


    Re: From The Archive Graveyard
    Phat writes:

    Trump knows how to market himself as a Populist, that's for sure. As for being a Christian? I see no evidence so far....

    Why do I have to repent, why do I have to ask for forgiveness if [Im] not making mistakes?--Donald Trump

    When I go to church and when I drink my little wine and have my little cracker, I guess that is a form of forgiveness. I do that as often as I can because I feel cleansed.--Donald Trump


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 159 by Phat, posted 12-29-2017 9:42 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
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