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Author Topic:   The Marketing Of Christianity
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 539 of 591 (826406)
12-30-2017 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 538 by ringo
12-30-2017 11:15 AM


Re: God Unplugged
I would say both. To me, I would have to work to get there. Work on being selfish. Work on being proud and vain. Work on being ignorant of the reality surrounding my fellow man and myself.
Now, of course, Original Sin says that we are already ruined creations, anyway...so I'm starting to grow out of that philosophy. Introspection helps. Posting replies at this forum is a form of introspection.
I have also found that it is at times easy to deny God and at other times not so easy. Whether or not this action alone earns me a ticket to hell is problematic, however....chiefly because of people like you. I would certainly never send you there. I doubt I would send myself there, though there are days....

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 538 by ringo, posted 12-30-2017 11:15 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 540 by ringo, posted 12-30-2017 12:16 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 541 of 591 (826411)
12-30-2017 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 540 by ringo
12-30-2017 12:16 PM


Re: God Unplugged
We know we have those tendencies but fundies like to think that "the Creator of all seen and unseen" didn't create them.
All that He created was the possibility of them. Technically I suppose He could be held liable for creating an attractive nuisance, but you are free to sue Him if that will give you any control over your destiny. Some believe that it is far more rational to deny His existence in order to simplify things.
I for one believe that it further complicates things. I refuse to be left holding the bag for how my life turns out, especially when I'm already trying to do my best.
I cant very well blame you now can I? If God never existed, it would be necessary to create Him so that I could hold Him accountable for how I turn out.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 540 by ringo, posted 12-30-2017 12:16 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 542 by ringo, posted 12-30-2017 12:32 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 543 of 591 (826419)
12-30-2017 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 542 by ringo
12-30-2017 12:32 PM


Re: God Unplugged
Phat writes:
I refuse to be left holding the bag for how my life turns out....
ringo writes:
That says it all, doesn't it?
Yes, basically it does. I will forever remain a believer,hopefully.
You have admitted before that you never truly were one. A lot of it boils down to what we actually believe.
One fear that I have is that my spirituality becomes (or already is) a form of addiction. Kinda like playing the longshot. Perhaps the probability of God (and a friendly One at that) is a billion to one, but think of the payoff!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 542 by ringo, posted 12-30-2017 12:32 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 546 by ringo, posted 01-02-2018 10:43 AM Phat has replied
 Message 554 by Stile, posted 01-09-2018 9:42 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 544 of 591 (826436)
12-31-2017 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 532 by Stile
12-05-2017 2:45 PM


Re: Believe vs. Non-Belief
Stile,replying to Faith writes:
If your beliefs were based on the evidence... then you wouldn't be able to say such a thing.
Since further evidence is the only way to change any idea that's actually based on evidence.
Therefore, the evidence you saw led you to your Christian beliefs, but your Christian beliefs are actually based on something else.
Some people are actually defending their own will. They refuse to budge or entertain any further evidence because they need to believe and to believe without reservation or compromise. I used to feel that way, but more and more I allow myself to question and occasionally doubt because I believe that God understands me. He won't smite me simply for daring to ask a question nor to even express serious doubt.
That's what others don't understand. They fear to challenge their own willful decision as if it is somehow blasphemous to do so.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 532 by Stile, posted 12-05-2017 2:45 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 545 of 591 (826437)
12-31-2017 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by jar
03-25-2016 7:49 PM


Re: Christianity 101
Im bored...so I'm stirring up a discussion. Hope you have a nice New years, by the way.
jar writes:
Stop just believing what you have been told because it is comforting. See what the actual evidence shows.
First, there was no sudden or dramatic changes. Paul never experienced Jesus Death,Burial, and Resurrection except from being told the stories AFTER whatever actually happened on his way to Damascus. And very little changed about Paul after the incident; he was still the fanatic, set in his ways, not open to compromise unless it is in his advantage, opinionated person that he was before the incident.
Plus, all that is still five to ten years after Jesus death.
There was very little change in the Disciples either; remember Peter had been willing to draw sword when Jesus was arrested.
When you mention that little actually changes in a person, do you mean short term or long term?
I ask myself if I am the same basic believer that I was in 2004 when I arrived at EvC.
jar,from earlier belief statement writes:
(concerning confirmation)
Bishop: Will you continue in the apostles' teaching and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in the prayers? What would you define briefly as the apostles teaching?
People: I will, with God's help. How would you describe God's help? What form does it take?
Bishop: Will you persevere in resisting evil, and, whenever you fall into sin, repent and return to the Lord?
People: I will, with God's help.
Bishop: Will you proclaim by word and example the Good News of God in Christ?
People: I will, with God's help. In a sentence or so, explain the Good News of God in Christ to us.
We discussed earlier how Saul remained similar as Paul and in what ways he changed. You also have mentioned that there is no such thing as sudden transformation...that it is a willful and daily process. I agree with that.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by jar, posted 03-25-2016 7:49 PM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 547 of 591 (826463)
01-02-2018 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 546 by ringo
01-02-2018 10:43 AM


Re: God Unplugged
You said that you refuse to take responsibility. Believing in God has little to do with that.
On the contrary, people need to take responsibility for their belief as well as their actions. Owning a belief is making a commitment. You said before that even as a child you never wanted to take the responsibility of surrendering yourself to God...perhaps because you saw a hollow symbolism. You were, however, responsible for your choice. Its not that atheists have no beliefs. They believe that they have made the right choice. Some would argue that reality based on evidence is not a choice but a default. I would argue that it nonetheless is a choice if other options have been turned down.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 546 by ringo, posted 01-02-2018 10:43 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 548 by ringo, posted 01-02-2018 11:44 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 549 of 591 (826467)
01-02-2018 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 548 by ringo
01-02-2018 11:44 AM


Re: God Unplugged
Beliefs don't just evaporate on their own. One consciously chooses to discard them.
Take your own example:
As I've said before, it's the payoff that I don't want.
You are choosing not to gamble. In a sense, choosing a belief is a bit like a gamble.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 548 by ringo, posted 01-02-2018 11:44 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 550 by ringo, posted 01-02-2018 12:31 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 551 of 591 (826608)
01-05-2018 3:43 AM
Reply to: Message 550 by ringo
01-02-2018 12:31 PM


Re: God Unplugged
ringo writes:
But who actually chooses a belief?
Granted. More properly I would say that I chose to believe. Even my parents never mentioned going that far. To them, church was a social event.
Of course, you could argue that was Santa Claus mentioned in church, I may well have chosen him.
My point is that you were obviously part of the scene and were told what to do, but you never chose to believe...which may simply be your character makeup.
One bad trait of Biblical Christians is that they never encourage questions nor doubts.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 550 by ringo, posted 01-02-2018 12:31 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 552 by ringo, posted 01-07-2018 2:34 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 553 of 591 (826727)
01-08-2018 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 552 by ringo
01-07-2018 2:34 PM


Re: God Unplugged
Not to mention that even if you did believe, the God you would embrace is likely much different from mine. Your God would likely be a hands-off God Who would step back and let His children grow up and make mistakes.
Thus perhaps for you, it does make more sense to wait. it's like ordering a product available later and wisely withholding payment until it actually comes in.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 552 by ringo, posted 01-07-2018 2:34 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 555 by ringo, posted 01-09-2018 11:23 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 556 of 591 (826786)
01-09-2018 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 555 by ringo
01-09-2018 11:23 AM


Re: God Unplugged
Hopefully people at least try and believe in a bigger God than the one they can make up. Is your imaginary God bigger than what science can prove? if not, you let the facts get in the way. May as well stick with Long John Silver!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 555 by ringo, posted 01-09-2018 11:23 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 557 by ringo, posted 01-26-2018 11:22 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 574 by dwise1, posted 03-14-2018 2:34 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 558 of 591 (827776)
02-01-2018 2:40 AM
Reply to: Message 487 by dwise1
11-21-2017 10:30 AM


Re: Food For Thought
dwise1 writes:
...but either you believe or you don't -- you cannot choose to believe.
As I was rereading this thread, your statement jumped out...and i disagree with it. In my opinion, belief is entirely a choice. The evidence is not that important nor persuasive to me. And not that there is a conclusive amount of it.
Believers who remain, believers, have more of a need to believe than do former believers, who are easily swayed by evidence.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 487 by dwise1, posted 11-21-2017 10:30 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 559 by ringo, posted 02-01-2018 11:36 AM Phat has replied
 Message 576 by dwise1, posted 03-14-2018 3:59 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 579 by dwise1, posted 03-16-2018 3:03 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 560 of 591 (827793)
02-01-2018 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 559 by ringo
02-01-2018 11:36 AM


Re: Food For Thought
Why?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 559 by ringo, posted 02-01-2018 11:36 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 561 by ringo, posted 02-01-2018 12:04 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 562 of 591 (827811)
02-01-2018 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 561 by ringo
02-01-2018 12:04 PM


Re: Food For Thought
I have no need to believe in Zeus. He has nothing useful to offer me.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 561 by ringo, posted 02-01-2018 12:04 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 563 by Tangle, posted 02-01-2018 5:48 PM Phat has replied
 Message 568 by ringo, posted 02-02-2018 10:54 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 564 of 591 (827821)
02-02-2018 4:06 AM
Reply to: Message 563 by Tangle
02-01-2018 5:48 PM


Re: Food For Thought
Yes I can accept that premise. Logically, it makes sense.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 563 by Tangle, posted 02-01-2018 5:48 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 565 by Tangle, posted 02-02-2018 4:55 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 569 of 591 (829794)
03-14-2018 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 568 by ringo
02-02-2018 10:54 AM


Re: Food For Thought
ringo writes:
You have the same need for Zeus that you have for Jehovah. Why choose one over the other?
Does a man have the same need for his Mother as he does for a random matronly figure whom he happens to meet?
Way back when he was born, he well could have chosen the nurse as his bonding influence if he was aware of her before Mom held him.
And yet Mom became Mom. Did he choose her? Could he have chosen anyone else?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 568 by ringo, posted 02-02-2018 10:54 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 570 by NoNukes, posted 03-14-2018 12:33 PM Phat has replied
 Message 571 by jar, posted 03-14-2018 12:50 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 575 by ringo, posted 03-14-2018 3:38 PM Phat has not replied

  
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