The "science" of Miracles

No. The only one of those who has disagreed with me about the definition of "miracle" is you - and you were just misreading your own references. It's a paraphrase. What's the proper notation for indicating a paraphrase? And yet in the very next line yo say:

quote:

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What I would say and have said is that a miracle is not explicable by natural or scientific laws...

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Silly me, I thought that "can't be explained by natural causes" and "not explicable by natural or scientific laws" meant the same thing. It's made up. Why do you have to make up examples? Why can't you refer to the examples that are actually called "miracles"?Your example is easily explained by natural causes: You made it up.

When I cross a bridge, I put faith in the bridge. Even if it's pretty rickety, it's the only way across. I wouldn't call that a "strong" faith.

If something we can't explain does happen, we don't say, "At present it sure looks like miracles can happen." We say, "I wonder how that happened." That's how science begins.

Hi ringo, And when there is no physical answer, "Then What"?God Bless,

Keep looking.

So, in essence, you are saying "I can't explain it!" I wonder how I can explain it?Percy is saying that every conceivable test has been ran...except waiting until tomorrow...and no explanations are forthcoming. How long do you plan on wondering before you conclude anything? Your entire life? (Which would be a definite choice, by the way)

If there is a creator, I don't see why, in principle, it couldn't be comprehensible in terms of natural laws. If there's a God performing miracles; there must be some method by which he does it.That doesn't mean the explanation is necessarily something we could comprehend of course; and assuming a creator god would be something outside of, or somehow separate to, our universe, it's entirely possible that we would not in principle be able to uncover its secrets from within.

Yes. Yes.

well, that's a definite choice. One option did not simply evaporate. Its just unexplainable at the moment.

Hi ringo, On Christmas Eve 1971 a 17 year old German girl was aboard a Lockheed Electra traveling 2 miles high over the Amazon. The plane exploded from a lightning strike killing everyone on board except her. She woke up on the jungle floor, still strapped into her seat, and surrounded by fallen holiday gifts. She decided to find civilization by following the flow of water as she had been taught by her father. She had to push the death of her mother who sat beside her in the plane, putting it out of her mind.
She had to ignore her broken collar bone, and other injuries. She wadded from tiny streams to larger ones. She had lost one shoe in the fall and was wearing a ripped miniskirt. Her only food was a bag of candy, and she had nothing but creek and river water to drink.She had to navigate a jungle that was infested with crocodiles, stingrays, piranha and many kinds of bugs and insects.On the tenth day, she rested on the bank of the Shebonya River. When she stood up she saw a canoe tethered to the shoreline. It took her hours to climb the embankment to a hut, where the next day a group of lumberjacks found her.The incident was seen as a miracle in Peru.There are many other fantastic stories such as the one above.God Bless,

Hi ringo, When you have exhausted all avenues and there is no physical answer to say just keep looking when there is nothing to look for is like sticking your head in the sand and saying I know what I believe so don't bother me with the facts.God Bless,

Well it fulfills the colloquial use of the word 'miracle' but nothing else. Many thousands every year. But they're not miracles are they? They're simply improbable natural events.

You were right about "attributed" being part of the definition of miracle, but that turned out to be unimportant, as I explained at the end of Message 269 and in Message 276. Because science is tentative it doesn't matter that we can't conclude miracle with certainty. When the George Washington Bridge moves 50 miles up the Hudson, analysis could conclude miracle with perfect scientific validity since the conclusion is tentative. Tangle and are in agreement on this. Sometimes context makes it obvious that paraphrase is involved, and when it doesn't you can try one of these or make up your own:

• Whether they attribute it to a specific supernatural cause or not, (paraphrasing) "can't be explained by natural causes" implies supernatural causes, doesn't it?
• Whether they attribute it to a specific supernatural cause or not, (sic) "can't be explained by natural causes" implies supernatural causes, doesn't it?
• Whether they attribute it to a specific supernatural cause or not, when you say something like "can't be explained by natural causes" implies supernatural causes, doesn't it?

I would never say "can't be explained by natural causes" because some people might think that synonymous with "can be explained by supernatural causes." Of course my example of the George Washington Bridge moving 50 miles up the Hudson is made up, because Tangle and I don't believe there's any unambiguous evidence of miracles having happened. It goes back to when we were asking whether you'd be willing to discuss miracles hypothetically, or whether you'd insist on ruling them out out of hand.--Percy

You're going off in another direction now. The part of your reply in Message 295 that I was focused on was when you said, "I believe that humanity, human knowledge, etc. is all we can count on." That's why I said your reply reemphasizes how strongly you put your faith in humanity, and that from Phat's perspective it's all still religion, but with faith in humanity instead of God.--Percy

But we're not discussing something that is obviously just a not-yet-fully-understood scientific phenomenon like dark matter or dark energy, not an inexplicable phenomenon. Tangle and I have presented examples that are not explicable by currently understood natural or scientific laws.--Percy