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Author | Topic: The "science" of Miracles | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Percy writes:
No. The only one of those who has disagreed with me about the definition of "miracle" is you - and you were just misreading your own references.
Calling Tangle "the only one" was a bit off. More accurately, it's you and Jar on one side, me and Tangle on the other, Phat and caffeine sort of auditing, and New Cat's Eye with a middle position where miracles are possible and supernatural and never scientific. Percy writes:
It's a paraphrase. What's the proper notation for indicating a paraphrase?
Why is "can't be explained by natural causes" in quotes? Percy writes:
And yet in the very next line yo say:
It isn't wording I used or would use, so I don't understand the quotes.quote:Silly me, I thought that "can't be explained by natural causes" and "not explicable by natural or scientific laws" meant the same thing. Percy writes:
It's made up. Why do you have to make up examples? Why can't you refer to the examples that are actually called "miracles"? the miracle having taken place here in the natural world (the George Washington Bridge moving 50 miles up the Hudson) is very much part of the natural. Your example is easily explained by natural causes: You made it up.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
When I cross a bridge, I put faith in the bridge. Even if it's pretty rickety, it's the only way across. I wouldn't call that a "strong" faith.
... your reply does reemphasize how strongly you put your faith in humanity.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Percy writes:
If something we can't explain does happen, we don't say, "At present it sure looks like miracles can happen." We say, "I wonder how that happened." That's how science begins.
Just as we might say, "At present it sure looks like we understand the basics of electricity," were a miracle (event not explicable by natural or scientific laws) to happen we might say, "At present it sure looks like miracles can happen."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi ringo,
ringo writes: If something we can't explain does happen, we don't say, "At present it sure looks like miracles can happen." We say, "I wonder how that happened." That's how science begins. And when there is no physical answer, "Then What"? God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ICANT writes:
Keep looking.
And when there is no physical answer, "Then What"?
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes:
So, in essence, you are saying "I can't explain it!" I wonder how I can explain it? If something we can't explain does happen, we don't say, "At present it sure looks like miracles can happen." We say, "I wonder how that happened." That's how science begins. Percy is saying that every conceivable test has been ran...except waiting until tomorrow...and no explanations are forthcoming. How long do you plan on wondering before you conclude anything? Your entire life? (Which would be a definite choice, by the way)Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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caffeine Member (Idle past 1052 days) Posts: 1800 From: Prague, Czech Republic Joined: |
This also could (and should) apply to the concept of GOD. If you isolate the miracles and phenomena from GOD, they would appear to be eventually describable. Throwing the Big Guy into the equation means that science has a lot more work to do to explain Him.(or as jar may suggest, Her or It ) If there is a creator, I don't see why, in principle, it couldn't be comprehensible in terms of natural laws. If there's a God performing miracles; there must be some method by which he does it. That doesn't mean the explanation is necessarily something we could comprehend of course; and assuming a creator god would be something outside of, or somehow separate to, our universe, it's entirely possible that we would not in principle be able to uncover its secrets from within.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Yes.
So, in essence, you are saying "I can't explain it!" I wonder how I can explain it? Phat writes:
Yes.
How long do you plan on wondering before you conclude anything? Your entire life?
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
well, that's a definite choice. One option did not simply evaporate. Its just unexplainable at the moment.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi ringo,
ringo writes: It's made up. Why do you have to make up examples? Why can't you refer to the examples that are actually called "miracles"? On Christmas Eve 1971 a 17 year old German girl was aboard a Lockheed Electra traveling 2 miles high over the Amazon. The plane exploded from a lightning strike killing everyone on board except her. She woke up on the jungle floor, still strapped into her seat, and surrounded by fallen holiday gifts. She decided to find civilization by following the flow of water as she had been taught by her father. She had to push the death of her mother who sat beside her in the plane, putting it out of her mind.She had to ignore her broken collar bone, and other injuries. She wadded from tiny streams to larger ones. She had lost one shoe in the fall and was wearing a ripped miniskirt. Her only food was a bag of candy, and she had nothing but creek and river water to drink. She had to navigate a jungle that was infested with crocodiles, stingrays, piranha and many kinds of bugs and insects. On the tenth day, she rested on the bank of the Shebonya River. When she stood up she saw a canoe tethered to the shoreline. It took her hours to climb the embankment to a hut, where the next day a group of lumberjacks found her. The incident was seen as a miracle in Peru. There are many other fantastic stories such as the one above. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi ringo,
ringo writes: Keep looking. When you have exhausted all avenues and there is no physical answer to say just keep looking when there is nothing to look for is like sticking your head in the sand and saying I know what I believe so don't bother me with the facts. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
ICANT writes: The incident was seen as a miracle in Peru. Well it fulfills the colloquial use of the word 'miracle' but nothing else.
There are many other fantastic stories such as the one above. Many thousands every year. But they're not miracles are they? They're simply improbable natural events.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Percy Member Posts: 22499 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
ringo writes: Percy writes:
No. The only one of those who has disagreed with me about the definition of "miracle" is you - and you were just misreading your own references. Calling Tangle "the only one" was a bit off. More accurately, it's you and Jar on one side, me and Tangle on the other, Phat and caffeine sort of auditing, and New Cat's Eye with a middle position where miracles are possible and supernatural and never scientific. You were right about "attributed" being part of the definition of miracle, but that turned out to be unimportant, as I explained at the end of Message 269 and in Message 276. Because science is tentative it doesn't matter that we can't conclude miracle with certainty. When the George Washington Bridge moves 50 miles up the Hudson, analysis could conclude miracle with perfect scientific validity since the conclusion is tentative. Tangle and are in agreement on this.
It's a paraphrase. What's the proper notation for indicating a paraphrase? Sometimes context makes it obvious that paraphrase is involved, and when it doesn't you can try one of these or make up your own:
Silly me, I thought that "can't be explained by natural causes" and "not explicable by natural or scientific laws" meant the same thing. I would never say "can't be explained by natural causes" because some people might think that synonymous with "can be explained by supernatural causes."
Percy writes:
It's made up. Why do you have to make up examples? Why can't you refer to the examples that are actually called "miracles"? the miracle having taken place here in the natural world (the George Washington Bridge moving 50 miles up the Hudson) is very much part of the natural. Of course my example of the George Washington Bridge moving 50 miles up the Hudson is made up, because Tangle and I don't believe there's any unambiguous evidence of miracles having happened. It goes back to when we were asking whether you'd be willing to discuss miracles hypothetically, or whether you'd insist on ruling them out out of hand. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22499 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
ringo writes: When I cross a bridge, I put faith in the bridge. Even if it's pretty rickety, it's the only way across. I wouldn't call that a "strong" faith. You're going off in another direction now. The part of your reply in Message 295 that I was focused on was when you said, "I believe that humanity, human knowledge, etc. is all we can count on." That's why I said your reply reemphasizes how strongly you put your faith in humanity, and that from Phat's perspective it's all still religion, but with faith in humanity instead of God. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22499 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
ringo writes: If something we can't explain does happen, we don't say, "At present it sure looks like miracles can happen." We say, "I wonder how that happened." That's how science begins. But we're not discussing something that is obviously just a not-yet-fully-understood scientific phenomenon like dark matter or dark energy, not an inexplicable phenomenon. Tangle and I have presented examples that are not explicable by currently understood natural or scientific laws. --Percy
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