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Author Topic:   What is an "Ex Believer", anyway?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 74 of 123 (826346)
12-29-2017 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Tangle
12-29-2017 9:09 AM


Re: The definition of meeting God 2017
I'm making it difficult because as adults, we shouldn't have to do a 180 on our worldview. We should be consistent.
This isn't simply about Santa Claus... it's about reality itself.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Tangle, posted 12-29-2017 9:09 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Tangle, posted 12-29-2017 9:30 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 77 of 123 (826366)
12-29-2017 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by ringo
12-29-2017 10:39 AM


Re: The definition of meeting God 2017
I stopped believing in Santa Claus and God. What's the difference?
You likely never fully believed in either one. I could see you demanding evidence even when you were six.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by ringo, posted 12-29-2017 10:39 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by ringo, posted 12-29-2017 11:04 AM Phat has replied
 Message 79 by Tangle, posted 12-29-2017 11:13 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 80 of 123 (826374)
12-29-2017 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by ringo
12-29-2017 11:04 AM


Re: The definition of meeting God 2017
Santa Claus can be tested. God cannot.
When I was 7, I put some cookies out for Santa. The next day I found the same cookies back in the cookie jar. The neighbor's roof had new-fallen snow on it Christmas Eve. No signs of chimney entry could be observed the next morning.
Add to that the logistics problems with a mere sleigh having room for a billion packages. Even at 7 I was capable of some critical thought after all.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by ringo, posted 12-29-2017 11:04 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by ringo, posted 12-29-2017 12:06 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 82 of 123 (826376)
12-29-2017 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by ringo
12-29-2017 12:06 PM


Re: The definition of meeting God 2017
For one thing, we expect a lot more out of God than we do out of Santa.
Maybe the God you imagined was not big enough or powerful enough to solve the logistics.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by ringo, posted 12-29-2017 12:06 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by ringo, posted 12-29-2017 12:16 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 84 of 123 (826378)
12-29-2017 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by ringo
12-29-2017 12:16 PM


Santa And God.
Again...its a lot harder to test for God than it is for Santa.
One test that I use...which I'll admit involves a bit of confirmation bias, is whether prayer does me any good. Arguments can be made that it does no good but unlike you, I don't rely solely on evidence and facts. Santa Claus never gave me anything that I couldn't buy myself. Perhaps for you, the same is true with God.
Another big reason is how I felt after my initial conversion.
I can admit that I need God...perhaps so much that if he didnt actually exist I would have to make Him up. If I did make Him up, He would be represented by inner peace and serenity and wisdom. Perhaps you have found all of that without the added need for a source.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by ringo, posted 12-29-2017 12:16 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by ringo, posted 12-29-2017 12:27 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 86 of 123 (826380)
12-29-2017 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by ringo
12-29-2017 12:27 PM


Re: Santa And God.
What does God give you that you can't get in other ways? Remember, we're talking about testing, here, not woo.
We are talking about emotional security. Woo would be nice as well, but I dont see what I consider it to be very often if at all.
Lets just say that there is a lot of insecurity in my life. Mom is dying...money is uncertain...trump and the B-52s provide scant security for an uncertain future. God,, however, seems immune from all that the uncertainties of the world can throw at Him.
Security is very important to me. Knowledge can provide some, wisdom can provide some, but Faith seems to fill in the shortfall.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by ringo, posted 12-29-2017 12:27 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by ringo, posted 12-30-2017 10:53 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 88 of 123 (826408)
12-30-2017 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by ringo
12-30-2017 10:53 AM


Re: Santa And God.
ringo writes:
I pointed out that you can do the same tests - and get the same results.
Which is silly. You know that Santa has feet...boots. We don't know what God looks like or whether His presence would even leave any testable hoofprints. Granted all that we know about Santa is other peoples depictions of him...and the same goes for God. jar claims that each of us creates the God we worship....so I suppose that technically you have a point in that you have the ability to create a God whom can be tested. Moreover, you would describe such a God as more honest than one that hides and/or cannot be tested.
So I digress....

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by ringo, posted 12-30-2017 10:53 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by ringo, posted 12-30-2017 12:22 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 90 of 123 (826413)
12-30-2017 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by ringo
12-30-2017 12:22 PM


Re: Santa And God.
So does this mean that when a man matures he no longer has a father?
My Dad passed at age 59 and I was happy to feel freedom from his yoke for awhile...but I found later on in life that I grieved losing a father figure. Perhaps that's why I like talking about God so much.
You claim that nobody is gonna save me but myself. I resist accepting that idea.
I like the religious idea that we are all His sons.
I argue with you because you are one of the prodigal sons.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by ringo, posted 12-30-2017 12:22 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by ringo, posted 12-30-2017 12:48 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 93 of 123 (826434)
12-31-2017 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by jar
12-30-2017 4:02 PM


The Analogy Of God As Comforter And Father Figure
Ive noticed more and more than many of our topics overlap in their psychological significance here at EvC. Specifically, I was thinking about what the basic psychological makeup of an evangelical and/or one type of believer actually infers.
In other topics, we have talked of President Trump and of how and why the evangelical base, by and large, supports him. As I prepared to type a response to this topic, I thought of God as a father figure...then thought of the last post I typed in the Trump thread...and realized that in times of crises, many Americans also look to a strong leader who reassures them rather than frightens, instigates, and divides them.
One thinks of FDR and his comforting speeches during the dark days of World War II. President Obama was also a good one with words that encouraged civic duty and social responsibility.
Many Christians feel the same way about God. We turn to scriptures that comfort and encourage us through the dark and challenging times of our lives.
Reality may well suggest that I find comfort in the God whom I create in my mind and heart, but I can tell you right now that I would likely never find any comfort or security in any speech that Donald Trump would make in a time of national crises and that fact alone concerns me.
My belief is that the GOD Who Is hears my prayers and concerns and hopefully through scripture, inner unction and realization, and the wise words of others
provides reassurance in hard times.
Whoever our leader is, we need encouragement towards unity rather than divisiveness. That's my take on that.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 12-30-2017 4:02 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 94 of 123 (826448)
01-01-2018 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by jar
12-30-2017 4:02 PM


Mom And God.
Phat writes:
So does this mean that when a man matures he no longer has a father?
ringp writes:
It means he doesn't rely on his father to bail him out of everything. He takes responsibility for his own actions.
As you probably can surmise, I have been bailed out my whole life. One of my 2018 resolutions is to try and assume more responsibility. GOD can be more of a safety net and less of a copilot. Maybe He really does want me to grow up!
I can't imagine having to fend for myself in a universe with no God, however. Its just too overwhelmingly nerve-wracking!
jar writes:
And often it means the child taking care of the parent.
Thankfully my sweet Mother is still living at age 94. We had to place her in assisted living, and I now find myself taking care of her, with my sister. For many years well beyond my childhood, she took care of me. Perhaps that feeling---that awareness that I may someday be alone without her physically present is part of my externalized fear of letting go of God.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 12-30-2017 4:02 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by ringo, posted 01-02-2018 10:37 AM Phat has replied
 Message 99 by Aussie, posted 01-04-2018 12:01 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 96 of 123 (826468)
01-02-2018 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by ringo
01-02-2018 10:37 AM


Re: Mom And God.
so are you saying that God and no God are the same thing? If so I can see how you thought your beliefs simply evaporated without you having to choose anything.
But you chose to think that way

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by ringo, posted 01-02-2018 10:37 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by ringo, posted 01-03-2018 2:50 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 98 of 123 (826539)
01-03-2018 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by ringo
01-03-2018 2:50 PM


Re: Mom And God.
I suppose you have a point. I would argue that Santa Claus never impressed me that much...even as a kid. The emotional catharsis of the initial Born Again experience is what solidified my belief initially, though there were many other contributing factors confirming the bias. I only question it because I observe Faith refusing to question or let go of hers. Which leads me to think that God, if God exists, would have no problems with my questioning nor doubting.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by ringo, posted 01-03-2018 2:50 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 106 of 123 (826631)
01-05-2018 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Aussie
01-05-2018 11:47 AM


God. Father Figure or more?
I think that you were just a victim of authoritarian ideology and that throwingGod away was your attempt to regain control of your faculties. I too used to belong to a church that was militant and encouraged extreme works such as fasting, praying, no TV, and extreme discipline towards being a better soldier. It was only later that I concluded that God simply didnt care nor was impressed by such devotion.
Unlike you, however, I never simply threw God away. I have never had the cognitive dissonance that you seem to have had.
And about the Mommy and Daddy issues---yes I have them, but so do many people. They just don't talk about it on social media. By talking about them, I am not confirming them so much as therapeutically dealing with them.
I could never accept Dawkins peace of mind entirely, however. You at one time thought you needed God...then found solace with having a supreme rational mind. The question is, do you still have authoritarian tendencies?
Sorry for my dimestore psychoanalysis...this is just how I am on social media, BTW.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Aussie, posted 01-05-2018 11:47 AM Aussie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Aussie, posted 01-05-2018 3:15 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 112 of 123 (826647)
01-06-2018 1:52 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Aussie
01-05-2018 3:15 PM


Re: God. Father Figure or more?
I could say some of us have been brave enough to ask the truly difficult, soul-shattering questions...and kept asking them...and kept asking them while our lifelong world-view turned upside down and inside out. At the end we stood alone and shivering in an entirely different Universe than what we were taught about as children.
So what makes you so cocksure that you found the right answers?
Science is great for evidence-based experiments. Philosophical conclusions are another matter. One cannot be as sure about philosophy and belief as one can about tangible evidence. It would seem to me that at best one could go from being a believer to an agnostic. And about the parental analogy, I'm proud to claim something wiser than myself. I don't relish being an orphan and feel bad for those who are.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Aussie, posted 01-05-2018 3:15 PM Aussie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Aussie, posted 01-08-2018 12:45 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 113 of 123 (826648)
01-06-2018 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Faith
01-05-2018 7:51 PM


Re: How you got there
Faith writes:
I gather you were about as deep as one can get into traditional Christianity, but it makes me wonder, questions like Do you know you were born again? How do you know?
Though to be fair, asking him this question now makes about as much sense as asking an ex Scientologist "Do you know you were clear? How did you know?"
We (you and I) can believe that being born again is an absolute reality allowed by the Creator of all seen and unseen and we can dismiss any arguments that challenge our belief but imagine what Aussie has gone through and you can begin to understand that scripture and Christian Language no longer mean anything to him.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 01-05-2018 7:51 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Faith, posted 01-06-2018 3:17 AM Phat has replied

  
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