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Author | Topic: The "science" of Miracles | |||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Do you believe that we someday..(could be millions of years) we will be able to understand GOD?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
whats the harm in speculation? Logically, in my mind, if God exists He is the One who made the rules and laws, to begin with. He is not bound by anything except the logical reality of his existence.
Of course, it would not make sense for Him to whimsically make and unmake or break laws at will....but the point is that He is not bound by any law or rule by definition. Thus, in answer to the question of whether God could make a rock so big that He couldn't lift it...the answer would be yes. He could and also that yes a moment later He could lift it should he so choose to redefine the parameters. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
You like to base your definitions on things you can explain...whether today or next week. Miracles are based on things that cannot be explained...not now and not next week. Perhaps you believe that everything can be explained eventually.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
How can you possibly know what will be explained in the future? I am just showing where your faith lies. You believe in science and human potential because its all you have chosen to believe in.God, if God exists is special...not mundanely describable and definable as one might define Loki or Coyote or any other human-created god. Miracles by definition are special. They are woo, basically. And just because you try and define woo as unwoolike does not make the definition fit your framework. You try too hard to disprove any possibility that the stories in the Bible are actually miraculous, whereas Tangle, though he does not believe any of it, at least holds to the definition within the story that is itself miraculous...whereby you try and discredit the whole story as naturally explainable. There is no science involved concerning the issue of miracles by definition. Human wisdom cannot nor ever will capture the solution for a miracle or of God. You can claim that there is no such thing, but I have said that there is. A belief can be a belief regardless of evidence---indeed--there can be no evidence or the belief would no longer be a belief but a fact. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Let me see if I understand your point of view:
First, all that we have are stories. I have often asked jar to consider the motives and intent of the authors. Were the authors embellishing certain events as part of the story? OR...were the stories an accurate consensus of the observers present within the story at the time the story was recorded? People may well have had a different mental framework for declaring a miracle a miracle then vs now, but your Hudson Bridge argument brings the issue into the present moment. If an event such as this happened, the scientists could study it well beyond when the cows came home,but while you and Tangle say that such an event could be properly labeled as miraculous, Ringo seems to hold out that such an event would not now nor ever be regarded by him as miraculous since he chooses to refrain from committing to such a definite pronouncement....am I close?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Faith writes: From my experience, I could hardly conclude that such phenomena are living. I will agree that they exist, but beyond that, I have no clue. We are discussing things for which science has nothing to latch onto, apart from our probable delusions. (and I would argue that I was NOT delusional, though there is no way to prove it.) We know about the physical laws of nature, but if there are created beings that don't belong to the physical world, which would include all "spirit beings" like angels, cherubs, demons, fairies and so on, it doesn't clarify anything to insist on their being natural in the sense of created. They are sufficiently outside our ways of knowing to need some other kind of category. But one thing to note is that they are all BEINGS, living creatures, we're not talking about a world composed of some other kind of matter, at least I haven't been. Would you not agree, however, that if a "created being" was not of the natural world there would be no way to study it?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Where I'm not following you and Tangle, is why we should assume that the magical bridge-moving cherubs are not governed by some kind of natural laws. We keep looking for some way to test and verify....
Regardless of which way we look at it, we have to accept that the universe is fundamentally not as we thought it was. This also could (and should) apply to the concept of GOD. If you isolate the miracles and phenomena from GOD, they would appear to be eventually describable. Throwing the Big Guy into the equation means that science has a lot more work to do to explain Him.(or as jar may suggest, Her or It )Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: So you are saying that literally, everything will someday be explainable? You are saying that there will never be anything that we won't someday understand? Sounds like deification of human wisdom, again! When will you ever learn? There's no such thing as "not explicable by natural or scientific laws". It may be currently not explicable, like a flashlight to an illiterate Pacific Islander, but we can not predict what might be explicable tomorrow.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
lemme google....
Dictionary.com writes: That sure seems like a rational approach to life. of the nature of or made or done as a trial, experiment, or attempt; experimental: a tentative report on her findings. 2. unsure; uncertain; not definite or positive; hesitant: a tentative smile on his face.Ringo seems to nearly incorporate faith in humanity as a religion, however. I highly doubt that we will eventually solve all of our problems nor will some of them even be possible to understand. Despite Tangles wishes, God will never go away, nor will organized religion, but hopefully we will become wiser as to what we expect (Him, Her It) to do for us and what our obligations are to our species as well as our responsibilities. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Percy writes: I suppose in a strict literal sense, everyone in the world is agnostic. There is no such thing as eventual guaranteed certainty. Concerning belief, I could be an agnostic theist. I am quite certain that I believe. I am nor can I ever be certain that I know. More accurately, we can't claim that something will remain inexplicable forever, just as we cannot claim that something will remain explicable forever. Add by edit: More correctly, I am currently not certain that I can know. Perhaps I cannot declare that I will never be certain. Edited by Phat, : upon further contemplationChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes:
So, in essence, you are saying "I can't explain it!" I wonder how I can explain it? If something we can't explain does happen, we don't say, "At present it sure looks like miracles can happen." We say, "I wonder how that happened." That's how science begins. Percy is saying that every conceivable test has been ran...except waiting until tomorrow...and no explanations are forthcoming. How long do you plan on wondering before you conclude anything? Your entire life? (Which would be a definite choice, by the way)Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
well, that's a definite choice. One option did not simply evaporate. Its just unexplainable at the moment.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Percy writes: Not to mention that it implies that God Himself favors some and not others. Which opens up another can of worms. ... I'm just trying to make clear how we think of miracles. For example, when someone with a deadly disease suddenly becomes well, other people the world over with the same deadly disease continue to die. When a woman and a boy are run over by a car and survive virtually unscathed, other people around the world continue to die when struck by cars. I'm not suggesting that people should accept these as examples of miracles, but just to give a general idea why, though it's not part of the formal definition, that the general concept of "miracle" is that they are local.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Percy writes: What is the difference between the undetectable and the non-existent? Good question. As a believer, I would of course prefer that I at least believe in something undetectable rather than non-existent.
jar,in another thread writes:
Some emphasize the source of a miracle (or unexplained event) while others focus on the content and/or effect of the event itself.
Just another example of the CCoI belief in source over content. Percy writes: More to the point, will we ever know? Perhaps ringo has a point in that a miracle need never be defined as such until and unless one believes that it should be.
Sure, miracles could be taking place a mile a minute "in other worlds" (I'm assuming you mean other universes), but how would we ever know? Percy writes: One would think that we should at one point get the opportunity.
But if miracles are part of the natural world then unless God is playing games with us it is possible for them to take place where scientific observations are being conducted. Percy writes: The standard creo answer is that we were left with an ancient book which explains it all. If that's all we have to work with, however, I don't blame some for concluding that the undetectable is in fact non-existent.
Given that our understanding of the universe is based upon evidence, upon things we can detect, how could we ever gain any knowledge about something that, being undetectable, leaves behind no evidence, or measure how it is different from the nonexistent, which identically also leaves behind no evidence? Percy writes: My strongest faith is that there is purpose to the universe. Thus it logically follows that all miracles should have purpose. Would there hypothetically be such a thing as a random miracle?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The moon orbiting the earth was never a miracle no matter what we thought back when. However, if back then the known scientific law had not been discovered, the event would fit Percys definition. Could we thus agree that miracles are subjective by definition and tentative by definition?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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