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Author Topic:   Why did God forgive our sins?
Aussie
Member
Posts: 216
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 466 of 479 (825273)
12-11-2017 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by ICANT
12-24-2008 11:28 PM


Re: Re sinless
Double post...

Edited by Aussie, : Double post

Edited by Aussie, : No reason given.


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by ICANT, posted 12-24-2008 11:28 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
Aussie
Member
Posts: 216
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 467 of 479 (825274)
12-11-2017 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by ICANT
12-24-2008 11:28 PM


Re: Re sinless
Worse than the lake of fire.

But worse than that is The Great White Throne Judgment. Where all the lost will be judged. I will see everyone that I have talked to in my lifetime. Even those I never mentioned Christ too. There will be many in that day that will point a finger at me and say why didn't you tell me about Jesus and His saving power. There will be those who will say why didn't you bug me about being saved just one more time. The line will be endless and my pain will be great. I will see my friends and family members who never trusted Christ for salvation cast into the lake of fire.

That will be a terrible day for me.

That is why God will wipe away all the tears from my eyes.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

In other words God has to blot out all the bad memories, or heaven would be a place of misery.

So ICANT... pretending for a moment all this is true, are you saying God is going to remove your memories? Can you elaborate on this a little more please?

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe you are saying that you are going to be so heartbroken over the entirety of world history, especially the parts of it that you have come into contact with personally, that God will only be able to console you by literally wiping your memory. What does that tell you about God? He is going to effectively just wipe your collective hard drives anyway... what the hell are we going through all this crap for then?

That hardly sounds like a victorious end of the age to me. The only way you could be happy about the outcome is by reverting to spending Eternity as a willing amnesiac who can no longer recall the experiences of "the Refiner's Fire" that made you who you were to begin with. Sounds a lot like the original Adam in Eden before he ate of the "Tree of Knowledge of good and evil."


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by ICANT, posted 12-24-2008 11:28 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
Aussie
Member
Posts: 216
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 468 of 479 (825276)
12-11-2017 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by ICANT
12-25-2008 3:32 PM


Re: Re sinless
Right or wrong that is the way it is according to the Bible.

Now as far as being in hell with all your loved ones goes, do you think you will get to see anybody in hell or know that somebody is in hell. I find no scripture to that effect.

As I understand it being in the lake of fire will be like being in the hole in prison. Except no one will ever come and serve you bread and water.

In heaven we will know everyone by name and we will not miss anyone that we have known on earth that is not there.

I just have to point out that there is also no Scripture to validate any of your claims either. I don't care what your understanding is; I care what Scripture says. It is not called prison, much less "The hole" in prison. It is referred to as "The lake which burns with Fire and Brimstone, which is the Second Death." (Rev. 21:8) And God is willing to cast a wide variety of humans into it so they can suffer eternally.

Could you please respect Scripture enough to let it speak for itself? If you think that Scripture needs ICANT to speak for it, you should let me know, that would also help me understand where you are coming from.


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by ICANT, posted 12-25-2008 3:32 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
Aussie
Member
Posts: 216
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 469 of 479 (825277)
12-11-2017 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by ICANT
12-25-2008 3:48 PM


Re: Re sinless
Everyone of us ought to have to go to the lake of fire.

Have you actually even done anything to require a jail sentence at the level of human justice? Why do you deserve to be tortured so cruelly? How have you come to defending the use, not only of torture, but of an ETERNAL, UNENDING torture chamber to make the entirety of the Inquisition hide its face in shame? Think of the dark morality of your position here.

Can you be honest with me here? Do you defend the use of torture in any justice system? Would you stand by and nod silently while a prisoner is being lead off to the torture chamber for being born into a different religion? Or for telling a lie?

If it is immoral for a human to do it to another sentient being, why does it suddenly become morally good if your God inflicts exquisite torture on other sentient beings simply for not liking Him very much?

DA is a moral agency, like all of us here. And listening to you defend eternity in the Lake of Fire is causing him to morally recoil from your words and thoughts. Can you really not understand why?


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by ICANT, posted 12-25-2008 3:48 PM ICANT has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 470 by Phat, posted 12-11-2017 10:45 AM Aussie has responded
 Message 471 by AlexCaledin, posted 12-11-2017 10:54 AM Aussie has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11632
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 470 of 479 (825279)
12-11-2017 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 469 by Aussie
12-11-2017 10:20 AM


Aussie Questions
I think that ICANT is on hiatus, but you are asking him some honest questions and i respect your POV after reading them.

Seems as if you are somewhat like I am in that you read old archives when bored.

Religion depresses me at times, and yet I feel as if I need to understand GOD.

Just out of curiosity, have you been reading jar and my exchange concerning Calvinism and TULIP? It seems to go along with the questions that you are attempting to get Pastor ICANT to respond to.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 469 by Aussie, posted 12-11-2017 10:20 AM Aussie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 472 by Aussie, posted 12-11-2017 1:33 PM Phat has responded

  
AlexCaledin
Member (Idle past 182 days)
Posts: 41
From: Samara, Russia
Joined: 10-22-2016


Message 471 of 479 (825280)
12-11-2017 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 469 by Aussie
12-11-2017 10:20 AM


Re: Re sinless
- that is simple. You refuse, deliberately, in this life to develop the ability for eternal life; and after your death it's your own fault that is torturing you because there are none of the things of this life to comfort you, neither can you cease to exist because you are a process of awareness that must go on.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 469 by Aussie, posted 12-11-2017 10:20 AM Aussie has not yet responded

    
Aussie
Member
Posts: 216
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 472 of 479 (825285)
12-11-2017 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 470 by Phat
12-11-2017 10:45 AM


Re: Aussie Questions
Hey Phat,

I'm a big fan of the archives here.

Religion depresses me at times, and yet I feel as if I need to understand GOD.

Just out of curiosity, have you been reading jar and my exchange concerning Calvinism and TULIP? It seems to go along with the questions that you are attempting to get Pastor ICANT to respond to.

I can't really blame you for getting depressed by it all. The truth is you are somewhat more honest about it than many of the other believing members, and I think that kind of honesty, together with true belief, or at least the yearning for true belief can result in all kinds conflicting thoughts and emotions.

I get where you are coming from...I'm saying this with no condescension. I was the truest kind of true believer until my late twenties/early thirties. My goal was to be a Bible translator in Brazil until my early 20's when I started being groomed to be a travelling evangelist by the leaders of my church group.

My deconversion was slow and very painful on a personal level, and took almost a decade. It was the weirdest thing to me, like having been raised in a carnival room of crazy warping mirrors, but suddenly getting flashes of insight from a true reflection. My brain just couldn't process the information at first, it couldn't accept the flat, polished mirror as a true representation of reality.

I get this image in my mind when I hear believers saying things like have been said in this thread. That it is good and moral for an all-good God to inflict exquisite and eternal torture on people for finite crimes. Like being born in the wrong culture in the wrong century. To the non-believer's brain this is simply reprehensible; a crime against humanity. No Christian has yet given me an honest and sensible reply to this that describes also a God of infinite love. I just can't see this dichotomy of moral character as anything other than a profound and vicious absurdity. Thank God.

To me, Calvinism is one of the more evil ideas ever to occur to man. I am working my way through the conversation, but to my brain it's like listening to people discuss the texture of the bark, and the root structure of the beanstalk Jack climbed to get to the giant. I can only take it in small doses.


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 470 by Phat, posted 12-11-2017 10:45 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 473 by Phat, posted 12-11-2017 2:29 PM Aussie has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11632
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 473 of 479 (825287)
12-11-2017 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 472 by Aussie
12-11-2017 1:33 PM


Re: Aussie Questions
Im not consciously deconverting, but after having thrown away the God of Calvinism, I am finding trouble comprehending the GOD Whom I believe exists.

jar doesnt help matters much when he simply tells me to throw God away.

If he simply expects me to quit creating the God that I want and to go get busy doing things for other people, he misses out on the fact that I NEED to have and get as much as I need to help and give. I simply don't have the strength in me to throw away the Comforter and to start comforting others.

Im not sure that the old man from Deep South Texas understands what it means to need comfort.He was probably taught "awww tough! Grow up!"


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 472 by Aussie, posted 12-11-2017 1:33 PM Aussie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 474 by Tangle, posted 12-11-2017 3:05 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 475 by jar, posted 12-11-2017 3:26 PM Phat has responded
 Message 477 by Aussie, posted 12-11-2017 4:19 PM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6394
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


(2)
Message 474 of 479 (825290)
12-11-2017 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 473 by Phat
12-11-2017 2:29 PM


Re: Aussie Questions
Phat writes:

If he simply expects me to quit creating the God that I want and to go get busy doing things for other people, he misses out on the fact that I NEED to have and get as much as I need to help and give. I simply don't have the strength in me to throw away the Comforter and to start comforting others.

You have invested an enormous amount of effort in creating the cause of your discomfort. All you have to do is live a decent life, you don't have to go to church, pray to mysterious beings, believe the impossible and worry about future worlds. Just live a decent life.

A decent life doesn't mean running around stressing about helping everyone else either - it just means looking after yourself and doing what you can. You've made it all very complicated.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 473 by Phat, posted 12-11-2017 2:29 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 475 of 479 (825294)
12-11-2017 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 473 by Phat
12-11-2017 2:29 PM


Re: Aussie Questions
Phat writes:

Im not sure that the old man from Deep South Texas understands what it means to need comfort.He was probably taught "awww tough! Grow up!"

No, that certainly was not what I was taught. But what comfort are you looking for?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 473 by Phat, posted 12-11-2017 2:29 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 476 by Phat, posted 12-11-2017 3:55 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11632
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 476 of 479 (825295)
12-11-2017 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 475 by jar
12-11-2017 3:26 PM


Reassurance
Reassurance.

Im honest enough and introspective enough to agree with much of what we have discussed over the years regarding GOD, God, and god. I understood the basic concepts and agreed somewhat with the likelihood that humans certainly can't really know GOD.

In addition, upon critically examining the history of Christianity, I see where the whole Calvinist idea is certainly not above reproach. I won't let go of the idea, however, that GOD wanted a relationship with humans and sent Jesus.
Granted the idea provides a comfort and reassurance that everything will work out and that I won't be a victim of reality and of my previous mistakes in life.

Compulsive Gambling was a harsh lesson in reality. Most gamblers struggle with the idea of entitlement, and being owed something...and this too was how I grew up. The fantasy carried over into my religious and spiritual beliefs regarding a personal God. Medically, this is being addressed. I am sober now and calmer.

As I age, and as my health is challenged, I sometimes have fears that I wont end up as I feel I should have ended up. Prayer has always provided me with assurance, but lately, I have felt reluctant to pray...as if I am unsure Who is listening. In our conversations, you have been honest regarding your belief on such things, but quite frankly you have left me somewhat disappointed that you don't seem to see GOD the way I see GOD. Let's just get hypothetical a moment:

  • Why shouldn't GOD want to help me? Why can't I get blessed with money or better health?
  • Why dont you talk with GOD? Is it really that ridiculous? Why do you limit your meditations to how YOU can do better? Why not ask for help?

  • Could it be that the idea that I had about my parents carried over into how I expect God to act towards me? If so, whats so wrong with expecting anything?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 475 by jar, posted 12-11-2017 3:26 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 478 by jar, posted 12-11-2017 4:25 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
  • Aussie
    Member
    Posts: 216
    From: Sanford, FL USA
    Joined: 10-02-2006
    Member Rating: 3.1


    Message 477 of 479 (825297)
    12-11-2017 4:19 PM
    Reply to: Message 473 by Phat
    12-11-2017 2:29 PM


    Re: Aussie Questions
    I was not at all implying that you were deconverting, I was just giving my perspective on the issue. It's not an issue to be forced on someone, in my opinion.

    Do you have an opinion on morality and torture? And assuming your version of God exists, and assuming he mandates torture of people like me and other non-believers, would it affect your relationship with Him as a follower and Son? What I mean is, if you will be "Ruling and reigning" with God like Scripture says, you also will be sharing the moral responsibility of the eternal torture of the countless lost along with God. It's a big job title with big moral responsibility. Are you up to it? Do you think about it?


    "...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 473 by Phat, posted 12-11-2017 2:29 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 479 by Phat, posted 01-04-2018 10:28 AM Aussie has not yet responded

        
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 30934
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 1.6


    Message 478 of 479 (825298)
    12-11-2017 4:25 PM
    Reply to: Message 476 by Phat
    12-11-2017 3:55 PM


    Re: Reassurance
    Phat writes:

    Why shouldn't GOD want to help me? Why can't I get blessed with money or better health?

    I thought you had a job, health insurance, pension and Social Security?

    Why must I have aches and pains and asthma and thyroid problems and kidney issues?

    We get old Phat. We do get sick.

    Phat writes:

    Why dont you talk with GOD? Is it really that ridiculous? Why do you limit your meditations to how YOU can do better? Why not ask for help?

    I have enough trouble trying to figure out what I should do.

    I think I've mentioned that it isn't the big things we need to do.

    It helps to think about what I can do within the limits I face. Is there really anything more I need help with?

    I have food. I have reasonable health. I have challenges. I'm not sure what else I really want.

    Phat writes:

    Could it be that the idea that I had about my parents carried over into how I expect God to act towards me? If so, whats so wrong with expecting anything?

    Is the way you approach life making you happy? Does expecting better health or more money make you feel good?

    The really important part of prayer is what YOU hear?

    What is it you hear?


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 476 by Phat, posted 12-11-2017 3:55 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 11632
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 479 of 479 (826559)
    01-04-2018 10:28 AM
    Reply to: Message 477 by Aussie
    12-11-2017 4:19 PM


    Re: Aussie Questions
    Aussie writes:

    Do you have an opinion on morality and torture? And assuming your version of God exists, and assuming he mandates torture of people like me and other non-believers, would it affect your relationship with Him as a follower and Son? What I mean is, if you will be "Ruling and reigning" with God like Scripture says, you also will be sharing the moral responsibility of the eternal torture of the countless lost along with God. It's a big job title with big moral responsibility. Are you up to it? Do you think about it?

    Good question. First of all, I'm not even sure what my version of God is. Im still exploring that definition.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 477 by Aussie, posted 12-11-2017 4:19 PM Aussie has not yet responded

      
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