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Author Topic:   What is an "Ex Believer", anyway?
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


(2)
Message 99 of 123 (826572)
01-04-2018 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Phat
01-01-2018 11:56 AM


Re: Mom And God.
As you probably can surmise, I have been bailed out my whole life. One of my 2018 resolutions is to try and assume more responsibility. GOD can be more of a safety net and less of a copilot. Maybe He really does want me to grow up!
I can't imagine having to fend for myself in a universe with no God, however. Its just too overwhelmingly nerve-wracking!
Phat, no disrespect here, I mean it... I'm so glad your mom is alive and well.
But you have taken some otherwise jaw-droppingly arrogant liberties in evaluating the psychology of several ex-believers here, so I will do the same with you.
You posts here just scream "I have mommy and daddy issues!!!"
You are a grown-up. You are a man. You can think your own thoughts and have your own opinions, and oppose immoral ideas. You can fend for yourself in this world without your mom, you had no business forcing mommy to continue to care care of you beyond your childhood, and you can fend for yourself just as well in this Universe without an imaginary father figure that you want to call "God."
I was a true believer until my late twenties. Three or four times a week for years I would be up before 4 a.m. to study the Word, and pray quietly before the Lord, basking in His presence. He spoke to me; gave me confidence; gave me Wisdom to speak the right words in someone's time of need. I fasted and prayed before Him several days a week for years, and no one else knew. I did it for Him, not for the praise of men. When I spoke in church, or in the children's or young people's summer camps, or VBS, or the nursing homes, you could hear a pin drop. I was a young minister of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, poured out in service before Him.
I now no longer believe. I used to believe, and now I don't. It became more and more difficult to make excuses trying to justify the immorality of the versus I was preaching around. I was with missionaries on the Belize/Guatemala border when I realized I just could not in good conscience get into the pulpit and preach what I could no longer justify. This was not easy, but it was right. Please stop trying to project your mommy and daddy issues onto the lives of others who have found themselves (In the words of Richard Dawkins) comfortable "Growing Up in the Universe."

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 01-01-2018 11:56 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-04-2018 1:43 PM Aussie has replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 101 of 123 (826591)
01-04-2018 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by New Cat's Eye
01-04-2018 1:43 PM


Re: Mom And God.
What do you make of the thing that spoke to you and gave you confidence? Just all in your head?
It wasn't "a thing" speaking to me. I was projecting my own thoughts and feelings into a third-party mind that I believed to be real, but wasn't.

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-04-2018 1:43 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-04-2018 4:12 PM Aussie has replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 103 of 123 (826612)
01-05-2018 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by New Cat's Eye
01-04-2018 4:12 PM


Re: Mom And God.
It wasn't "a thing" speaking to me. I was projecting my own thoughts and feelings into a third-party mind that I believed to be real, but wasn't.
How'd you figure that out? Was it an active projection, or passive? And can you still do it?
I'm not sure what you mean by an "active or passive projection," although as used in my sentence it is certainly in the active voice. Maybe you could clarify for me. I was not deliberately lying to myself; but then deception is usually subtle.
If my brain were magically able to answer all my doubts and questions, and revert to a state of substance-less belief, I have little doubt I would be able to "do it" again. I mean, millions of people "do it" every day, to a variety of gods. Maybe you also "do it." These are the complexities of the human mind, but I'm not impressed with the way you worded it, as though it were a parlor trick.

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-04-2018 4:12 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-05-2018 10:58 AM Aussie has replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 105 of 123 (826618)
01-05-2018 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by New Cat's Eye
01-05-2018 10:58 AM


Re: Mom And God.
I was wondering if you were actually trying to project it, or if it was just something you were doing unconsciously.
I'm not really sure of the sense in which you are using the term "Project." We all have good ideas and bad ideas occur to us every day. If we are particularly superstitious or religious, we may attribute those ideas that occur to us to an agency or mind external to us. For a lack of good reasons to continue in my belief, I took responsibility for my own ideas...stopped blaming them on invisible beings.
I get how doubt could prevent you. But have you tried?
I could "try" to communicate with a wide variety of beings and creatures that I am quite certain are imaginary...but why would I? Seriously...why?
Why did you qualify the belief as substance-less? I don't see why that matters in particular.
Because that is what Faith is according to Hebrews!
Faith is believing in unseen and unheard stuff. Faith is belief in things for no good reason. Faith is belief in otherwise silly things just because.
It matters in every conceivable way to me that my beliefs have some substance that is verifiable in some other way than I just want it to be true.

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-05-2018 10:58 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Phat, posted 01-05-2018 2:40 PM Aussie has replied
 Message 108 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-05-2018 3:51 PM Aussie has replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 107 of 123 (826632)
01-05-2018 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Phat
01-05-2018 2:40 PM


Re: God. Father Figure or more?
I think that you were just a victim of authoritarian ideology and that throwing God away was your attempt to regain control of your faculties.
Hi Phat. Every Christian group is authoritarian, by definition. Every single one.
Again, stop making shit up about people you know nothing about. You seem like a nice enough guy, but you are really bad at this. It's not that you suck at psychoanalysis, it's just rather you are making wild-ass guesses about people you've never met in order to rationalize to yourself that there can be no true "Ex-believer." That is not anything like psychoanalysis.
I could say some of us have been brave enough to ask the truly difficult, soul-shattering questions...and kept asking them...and kept asking them while our lifelong world-view turned upside down and inside out. At the end we stood alone and shivering in an entirely different Universe than what we were taught about as children. But then took a step. All on our own. And another. Then another. Then we ran, and learned. And found ourselves truly free in a wild and magnificent world.
I have found life is orders of magnitude more wondrous without chains of magic and servitude. Please don't rationalize away my freedom while you stand clutching mommy and God-daddy's pant legs.
I could never accept Dawkins peace of mind entirely, however. You at one time thought you needed God...then found solace with having a supreme rational mind. The question is, do you still have authoritarian tendencies?
Perfect peace is an impossible illusion I think, but it doesn't matter if you can't accept Dawkin's or any of our peace of mind...it matters that you will never be brave enough to find and know it for yourself, and I find that a tragedy after all you have learned here on this forum over the years. I hope you prove me wrong here. I also am under no illusion that I have a "supreme rational mind." What is that anyway? There are few if anything Supreme when it comes to humans. Michelle Trachtenberg aside.
I am comforted in the fact that I have a perfectly fine mind, and it is rational, unencumbered by magic and impossible dreams.
And it is MINE!

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Phat, posted 01-05-2018 2:40 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 01-05-2018 7:51 PM Aussie has replied
 Message 112 by Phat, posted 01-06-2018 1:52 AM Aussie has replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 109 of 123 (826635)
01-05-2018 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by New Cat's Eye
01-05-2018 3:51 PM


Re: Mom And God.
I'm curious if you can still invoke that same state of prayer where you're spoken to and given confidence. Or, did not believing anymore mean those experiences stopped happening.
Oh, I see what you mean. My completely made-up answer would be YES! I think some meditative step could quite well simulate the sense of peace and well-being generated by intense and prolonged prayer. I used to love those times alone with the Lord. A great sense of peace and tranquility would come over me. I would like to think that a deep and relaxed meditative state would replicate that, almost exactly. I can't say this for sure, I'm not an expert in any of this. But I can speculate.
It matters in every conceivable way to me that my beliefs have some substance that is verifiable in some other way than I just want it to be true.
Yeah I just don't care about that as much.
This is not your fault, but I can't wrap my brain around this way of thinking. How do you possibly not care much if what you believe is true or not? I'm not trying to mock you, I'm really interested in what you think.

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-05-2018 3:51 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-05-2018 4:36 PM Aussie has not replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


(1)
Message 120 of 123 (826719)
01-08-2018 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Faith
01-05-2018 7:51 PM


Re: How you got there
Hi Faith,
I really enjoyed reading your thoughtful reply and abbreviated testimony. Sorry for the delayed response but you know...the weekend is strictly for my wife and daughter.
This is clearly from the point of view of someone starting out in a Christian family though. Some of us who weren't all that immersed in the Christian worldview, if at all, also did some heavy thinking and question-asking, but we were already in the upside-down world and already explored it and at least some of us would have liked to find an alternative.
You are correct in that I was immersed in Christianity from my earliest days. It is still a source of pride on my parents part that My first church service was a Sunday morning when I was eight days old (January, 1973 to give away my age). My dad has held a variety of church leadership positions, including Pastor, Evangelist, (We spent a couple of years living in a motor home travelling church to church), and Missionary. I'm not sure what you mean when you say "Traditional" Christianity, but the vast majority of my life was spent in different flavors of mainstream Christianity. I have spent a lot of time with Baptists (mostly Independent), I have a degree from a Methodist Bible College, but my dad was Ordained with the Assemblies of God, which is a Charismatic varient; and also spent a lot of time with Old Time Pentecostal-Holiness types. I used to idolize a young drummer in Camp Meetings who would later gain fame in the Contemporary Christian music world under the name Carman.
So yes, I was steeped in it from the very first, and it never occurred to me to doubt the existence of God. I was not a divisive person by nature, but from an early age I wanted to know not just what I believed, but also why I believed it. It sounds ridiculous, but I remember reading books when I was 11 on whether speaking in tongues is for today, or just for the Early Church; multiple books, pro and con. This is just the kind of mind I had...I wanted to defend my positions.
Several of my research papers in EN101 and speeches in speech class in Bible College were on why there was a literal, 6 day Creation 6,000 years ago. Twenty-five years ago, I would have been cheering on your every post here.
I ate up everything from the Creationist Institute and AIG, and I loved to defend my position, and tell people why Evolution was an atheist lie.
I gather you were about as deep as one can get into traditional Christianity, but it makes me wonder, questions like Do you know you were born again? How do you know? Did you have one image of God for some period of time and then a completely other image of God? Did you go from loving God to hating him when your image changed, or how would you put that? I find it hard to understand going from belief to disbelief based on your apprehension that God was different than you'd thought.
I hate using the word 'Know" when it comes to fundamentally unknowable things, but I knew I was saved, to the same degree you know you are saved. I continually repented of any sin I was aware of, I wanted to work out my salvation with fear and trembling according to Scripture. I tried to bring every thought into the Captivity of Jesus Christ. I tried to walk humbly before the LORD. I was popular and tried to be a blameless example to the young people around me. I spent usually an hour or two in prayer before the LORD daily, early morning and on a long afternoon walk down a quiet Alaskan trail. I felt his peace and knew his presence, and I remember praying to Him that I would rather die young than have Him let me live older and lose my faith.
Funny thing, that.
My main point to Phat here is I used to think like that; and now I don't. He made (an uncharacteristically obnoxious for him) a statement that people like us could not really have known the LORD; have had quite the special relationship with the divine as he has known. This is an absurd statement that defies my entire life. I felt the need to let him know how off-the-charts wrong he was in his statement. My change of mind came gradually and painfully. I didn't want it to happen. I fasted and prayed to try to rekindle the fire and regain the presence...to no avail. No trauma, no life-altering experience. No anger or hatred directed at the empty skies; it was just a change of mind.

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 01-05-2018 7:51 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Faith, posted 01-08-2018 8:59 PM Aussie has not replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 121 of 123 (826720)
01-08-2018 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Phat
01-06-2018 1:52 AM


Re: God. Father Figure or more?
So what makes you so cocksure that you found the right answers?
Science is great for evidence-based experiments. Philosophical conclusions are another matter. One cannot be as sure about philosophy and belief as one can about tangible evidence. It would seem to me that at best one could go from being a believer to an agnostic. And about the parental analogy, I'm proud to claim something wiser than myself. I don't relish being an orphan and feel bad for those who are.
If I have conveyed the arrogance of being "Cocksure" about anything I owe you an apology. I don't feel cocksure about much at all. My atheism is not about absolute certainty about deep questions humans have asked since time immemorial. And I really have no interest in the philosophical hair splitting that is atheism/agnosticism. I discarded my faith as I discovered that religion has very few solid and reasonable answers to back up Cosmic claims of mind-boggling magnitude.
There is nothing wrong with being happy that there are others older, wiser, smarter than ourselves. Where it becomes embarrassing is when you see others who refuse to grow up; adults relishing helpless infant, lost in the Universe mentalities.

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Phat, posted 01-06-2018 1:52 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 122 of 123 (826721)
01-08-2018 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Faith
01-06-2018 3:17 AM


Re: How you got there
But it had to mean something to him once. He was on track to become a pastor and heavily immersed in everything Christian, which from the sound of it was completely traditional if on the extreme side. Sometimes people are born again and don't have a clear memory of it but most people I know do have a clear memory of it, so he is likely to as well. Of course I am wondering if such an experience is crucial in the perseverance of the saints. Perhaps Aussie has an opinion.
My life and my faith were almost indistinguishable from each other. My parents "brought up a child in the way he should go so when he is old he won't depart from it." Their life and faith are to this day indistinguishable. It is all I remember from childhood.
In terms of the Calvinistic "Perseverance of the saints," I could never wrap my mind around that. James in chapter 6 I think was very clear that you can believe; then no longer believe.
"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the Heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good Word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance..."
That was ME; I then stopped believing. But I think this verse alone casts a lot of doubt on the Perseverance of the Saints doctrine.

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Faith, posted 01-06-2018 3:17 AM Faith has not replied

  
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