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Author Topic:   The "science" of Miracles
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 348 of 696 (826700)
01-07-2018 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 347 by ringo
01-07-2018 2:23 PM


When Bridges Can Fly
Percy writes:
But, hypothetically, how would science respond if tomorrow the George Washington Bridge moved 50 miles up the Hudson in the way I've described earlier: gently letting loose from its moorings, floating up into the air, moving 50 miles upriver, and settling back down to the ground near West Point.
ringo writes:
You're playing fast and loose with the word "hypothetical". If it can't be tested, it isn't a hypothesis. It's just a silly fantasy.
I think what Percy means is what would science do if the bridge had been discovered to have moved or been moved? How would the initial examination of the bridge and its moorings be conducted? Whom would be interviewed? Would there be any available video footage? Assuming all of that had been carried out and was inconclusive, we then would have a hypothesis. Percy may be arguing that the resulting hypothesis could tentatively be described as miraculous. Different people would attach different labels to the event. Not everyone would call it a miracle.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by ringo, posted 01-07-2018 2:23 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 350 by ringo, posted 01-07-2018 3:19 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 349 of 696 (826701)
01-07-2018 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 347 by ringo
01-07-2018 2:23 PM


If You Had Been Saul
Percy writes:
if you know of miracles that have the potential to be scientifically studied then we could look at those, too.
Assume that you were Saul. You suddenly became blind. You had been persecuting certain people for whatever reason before this happened, but unlike Saul you were not a religiously inclined thinker. What would be your conclusions?
Assume you heard a voice. It asked you why you were persecuting it.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by ringo, posted 01-07-2018 2:23 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 351 by ringo, posted 01-07-2018 3:22 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 353 of 696 (826709)
01-08-2018 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 351 by ringo
01-07-2018 3:22 PM


Re: If You Had Been Saul
Again, you're talking about subjective conclusions. That has nothing to do with science.
It has to do with psychology, which is a science.
You cant hope to study everything that ever happens with evidence-based experiments. Some things have to be speculated. how do you think they profile certain people at the FBI? Did you ever watch Silence Of The Lambs?
Subjectivity is very human and quite common. Sometimes it is all that one has to work with.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 351 by ringo, posted 01-07-2018 3:22 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 356 by ringo, posted 01-08-2018 10:58 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 354 of 696 (826711)
01-08-2018 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 339 by Tangle
01-05-2018 10:10 AM


A Miracle By Any Other Name
Perhaps that is why some people never conclude that a miracle has occurred precisely because they know from their studies that miracles don't actually exist.
It appears that Percy is approaching the concept as a believer would----even though he himself is a nonbeliever. In that context, he asks why something should not ever be labeled as a miracle---even if tentatively.
After all, if every conceivable experiment has been conducted and is thus far inconclusive, why not admit that a miracle certainly seems possible at that moment?
Isn't that just another form of belief?(Belief in rationality and scientific explanations as yet undiscovered?)
Perhaps you are right, though. Believers such as myself want miracles and are only to happy to claim them.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by Tangle, posted 01-05-2018 10:10 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 360 of 696 (826726)
01-08-2018 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 359 by Percy
01-08-2018 1:30 PM


Consensus
I conclude that this is one of those arguments that is itself subjective in that all of us could be right. There is no correct answer.
Ringo claims that your definition is not one that anybody uses, but I think what he means is that it is not one that everybody uses.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by Percy, posted 01-08-2018 1:30 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 361 by Tangle, posted 01-08-2018 5:23 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 362 by Percy, posted 01-08-2018 5:28 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 365 of 696 (826754)
01-09-2018 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 363 by 1.61803
01-09-2018 10:24 AM


Re: Consensus
That sounds like a good enough one for me. As a believer, I usually think that God or another supernatural force/being can be involved, but for the purposes of this forum and discussion, that need not apply. The cause is unknown. The effects are reportable yet subjective by necessity.
Percys Bridge Scenario fits the definition for the purposes of discussion.
Ringo may be arguing that one cannot create hypotheticals out of thin air and that there are no as yet verifiable miracles...so my next question is this:
Are there any documented and verifiable instances that appear to have violated the known laws of science and physics anywhere that we can reference?
If not, I can see ringos point that all we have are contrived hypotheticals which arguably would qualify as a start to consensus.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 363 by 1.61803, posted 01-09-2018 10:24 AM 1.61803 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 366 of 696 (826755)
01-09-2018 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 364 by ringo
01-09-2018 10:54 AM


Confounded Consensus
ringo writes:
A miracle is an event that the observer can not explain, so he attributes it to supernatural causes.
More correctly, some observers attribute it to supernatural causes. Others refuse to ever consider such an explanation. Thus, much of our definition for the purposes of consensus revolves around consensus on our individual subjectivity.
What I might take a leap into defining, you might wait until the cows come home before offering a tentative definition. Percy is attempting to persuade you to agree on the semantics, but you by nature always like to argue ---you seem to have great skills at pointing out exceptions to any and every rule or suggestion.
Question for you: Does the word Miracle seem to imply an inference towards the supernatural? Is this why you refuse to use it?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by ringo, posted 01-09-2018 10:54 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 368 by ringo, posted 01-09-2018 11:08 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 374 of 696 (826770)
01-09-2018 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 372 by 1.61803
01-09-2018 11:44 AM


Re: Consensus
Its like playing Simon Says with him, though he calls it Science Says.
Do Miracles Exist?
ringo: Not unless science says they do.
Do you?
You forgot to say Simon Says!
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by 1.61803, posted 01-09-2018 11:44 AM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 376 by ringo, posted 01-09-2018 11:58 AM Phat has replied
 Message 388 by 1.61803, posted 01-10-2018 12:19 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 377 of 696 (826773)
01-09-2018 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 376 by ringo
01-09-2018 11:58 AM


Re: Consensus
Perhaps the creator of science.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 376 by ringo, posted 01-09-2018 11:58 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 378 by ringo, posted 01-09-2018 12:17 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 379 of 696 (826775)
01-09-2018 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 378 by ringo
01-09-2018 12:17 PM


Re: Consensus
Exactly. But science existed before we did. We just formalized it.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by ringo, posted 01-09-2018 12:17 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 380 by ringo, posted 01-09-2018 12:25 PM Phat has replied
 Message 385 by frako, posted 01-10-2018 8:15 AM Phat has replied
 Message 392 by NoNukes, posted 01-11-2018 11:15 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 381 of 696 (826777)
01-09-2018 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 380 by ringo
01-09-2018 12:25 PM


Re: Consensus
So are you saying that nothing exists until we figure it out? That would explain why you are an unbeliever.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 380 by ringo, posted 01-09-2018 12:25 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 382 by ringo, posted 01-09-2018 12:32 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 383 of 696 (826780)
01-09-2018 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 382 by ringo
01-09-2018 12:32 PM


Re: Consensus
The only reason you see them as empty is that you count on evidence to fill up your every uncertainty. I realize that evidence is not always available and is usually not plentiful even if available.
Everyone is trying to get you to accept the possibility of miracles. You evidently conclude that belief without evidence should be discarded. I am trying to find out why you feel this way.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 382 by ringo, posted 01-09-2018 12:32 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 384 by Taq, posted 01-09-2018 4:33 PM Phat has replied
 Message 405 by ringo, posted 01-26-2018 10:48 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 386 of 696 (826804)
01-10-2018 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 384 by Taq
01-09-2018 4:33 PM


Re: Consensus
Taq writes:
If all we have is a bare assertion that something is true, then why shouldn't we discard that assertion until there is evidence to support it? Otherwise, anything we make up at the drop of the hat would have to be considered true until proven otherwise, and that makes no sense.
Good point. You are defending ringos position quite well. Percy wants us to think in terms of hypotheticals rather than waiting for evidence, however...and I see no reason why not to entertain that frame of mind in order to better understand what makes a believer conclude tentatively that something is true. After all, if you discard everything you may have thrown the baby out with the bathwater.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 384 by Taq, posted 01-09-2018 4:33 PM Taq has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 387 of 696 (826805)
01-10-2018 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 385 by frako
01-10-2018 8:15 AM


Re: Consensus
frako writes:
Science is an idea that you can figure out the world by observing testing and objective measurement. Just an idea it does not exist in reality, And that idea did not exist until someone thought it up.
Your philosophy sounds too human-centric for my beliefs. It is hubris to think that ideas don't exist in reality apart from human conception. They may not exist to us but that does not mean they don't exist. Niagara Falls was obeying the law of gravity before there was a law and before gravity was defined as an idea.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 385 by frako, posted 01-10-2018 8:15 AM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 391 by frako, posted 01-11-2018 6:34 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 393 by NosyNed, posted 01-11-2018 2:40 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 395 of 696 (826845)
01-11-2018 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 392 by NoNukes
01-11-2018 11:15 AM


Re: Consensus
Mankind. But I get the counter-arguments, and they do make sense. My basic argument is that something can exist before humans get ahold of trying to define and explain it. But perhaps your point is that science had no name before humans defined and conceptualized it.
*looks around*
How did I get on this rabbit trail anyway? Now, where was I?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by NoNukes, posted 01-11-2018 11:15 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
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