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Author Topic:   The "science" of Miracles
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 358 of 696 (826717)
01-08-2018 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 357 by Percy
01-08-2018 11:23 AM


Percy writes:
Saying "may or may not" just a more colorful way of saying "may", but they mean the same thing.
It's a more precise way. You're assuming that "may" has a more precise meaning than it actually does. You're using some very nit-picky points to try to tweak the definition of "miracle' in the direction you want it to go.
The fact is that the only distinction between a miracle and any other event is the attribution to "inexplicable" causes.
Percy writes:
Look up "may". It means "expressing possibility."
When you say, "I'll see you on the weekend - it may be Saturday or it may be Sunday," you are restricting the possibilities to a list.
Percy writes:
It is absolutely conclusive that known laws of nature and science were broken, which is the definition of a miracle.
That's the definition that you're clinging to. It isn't one that anybody uses.
Percy writes:
But what if an unambiguous miracle *did* happen?
What if Santa Claus was elected President of the United States? Start a thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by Percy, posted 01-08-2018 11:23 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 359 by Percy, posted 01-08-2018 1:30 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 364 of 696 (826753)
01-09-2018 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 359 by Percy
01-08-2018 1:30 PM


Percy writes:
Obviously if attribution to one of those causes is only a possibility, then there must exist other possibilities, of which non-attribution is one.
Not obvious at all. I gave you an example: "I'll see you on the weekend - it may be Saturday or it may be Sunday." Not seeing you at all is not an option.
Percy writes:
Wikipedia did not say, "The attribution of such an event may be to a supernatural being (a deity), or may be to magic, or may be to a miracle worker, or may be to a saint or may be to a religious leader."
It doesn't have to. It's clear from the context that a miracle is attributed to something. George sees a bright light, thinks it's a miracle and attributes it to the demon Wormwood. Jim sees the same bright light, understands how a flashlight works and attributes it to the laws of physics. The attribution is inherent.
Percy writes:
...neither of you have suggested an alternative definition.
A miracle is an event that the observer can not explain, so he attributes it to supernatural causes.
That doesn't disagree with Wikipedia.
Percy writes:
they unambiguously ascribe the cause to the supernatural or God.
Even you can't say it without using words like "ascribe", and yet you claim that that isn't an important aspect of the definition.
Percy writes:
But what if a miracle *did* occur? How would science respond?
The same way it responds to anything else. What it would not do is call it a "miracle". If the results were inconclusive, they would be called inconclusive.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by Percy, posted 01-08-2018 1:30 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 366 by Phat, posted 01-09-2018 11:02 AM ringo has replied
 Message 389 by Percy, posted 01-10-2018 2:55 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 367 of 696 (826756)
01-09-2018 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 363 by 1.61803
01-09-2018 10:24 AM


Re: Consensus
~1.6 writes:
What comes to my mind is the laws of physics was somehow violated and suspended for xyz to occur.
Consider the Miracle of the Sun, a.k.a. the Miracle of Fatima. People saw what they thought was a violation of the laws of physics - but scientists have suggested several possible explanations.
What people are actually calling miracles - and in this case is confirmed as a miracle by the Roman Catholic Church - is not what we can't explain. It's what they can't explain.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 363 by 1.61803, posted 01-09-2018 10:24 AM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 370 by 1.61803, posted 01-09-2018 11:31 AM ringo has replied
 Message 390 by Percy, posted 01-10-2018 4:06 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 368 of 696 (826757)
01-09-2018 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 366 by Phat
01-09-2018 11:02 AM


Re: Confounded Consensus
Phat writes:
Others refuse to ever consider such an explanation.
Including science. Science doesn't have a "Goddidit" option, even for flying bridges.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by Phat, posted 01-09-2018 11:02 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 369 by kjsimons, posted 01-09-2018 11:22 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 371 of 696 (826767)
01-09-2018 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 370 by 1.61803
01-09-2018 11:31 AM


Re: Consensus
~1.6 writes:
I get that you do not believe miracles can exist.
Nothing I've said in this thread has anything to do with whether or not I believe miracles can exist.
~1.6 writes:
And if something does, bear with me here.... IF something does
would you be content to call that a miracle?
If science calls something a miracle, I'm perfectly happy to call it a miracle. As far as I know, it's science that doesn't include the possibility of miracles.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 370 by 1.61803, posted 01-09-2018 11:31 AM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 372 by 1.61803, posted 01-09-2018 11:44 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 373 of 696 (826769)
01-09-2018 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 372 by 1.61803
01-09-2018 11:44 AM


Re: Consensus
~1.6 writes:
Do you?
As I've said, if science calls it a miracle, I have no problem with calling it a miracle. If somebody calls something "inexplicable", that doesn't mean it's inexplicable to everybody.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by 1.61803, posted 01-09-2018 11:44 AM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 375 by 1.61803, posted 01-09-2018 11:53 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 376 of 696 (826772)
01-09-2018 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 374 by Phat
01-09-2018 11:50 AM


Re: Consensus
Phat writes:
Its like playing Simon Says with him, though he calls it Science Says.
What better source can you name?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by Phat, posted 01-09-2018 11:50 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 377 by Phat, posted 01-09-2018 12:12 PM ringo has replied
 Message 396 by Phat, posted 01-11-2018 5:07 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 378 of 696 (826774)
01-09-2018 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 377 by Phat
01-09-2018 12:12 PM


Re: Consensus
Phat writes:
Perhaps the creator of science.
Humans created science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 377 by Phat, posted 01-09-2018 12:12 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 379 by Phat, posted 01-09-2018 12:21 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 380 of 696 (826776)
01-09-2018 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 379 by Phat
01-09-2018 12:21 PM


Re: Consensus
Phat writes:
But science existed before we did.
Nope. In fact, we were around for a long time before we figured it out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 379 by Phat, posted 01-09-2018 12:21 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 381 by Phat, posted 01-09-2018 12:26 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 382 of 696 (826778)
01-09-2018 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 381 by Phat
01-09-2018 12:26 PM


Re: Consensus
Phat writes:
So are you saying that nothing exists until we figure it out?
Nothing that humans created existed before humans created it. Is that so hard to understand?
Phat writes:
That would explain why you are an unbeliever.
You're trying too hard to figure out what makes me an unbeliever. I'm an unbeliever because beliefs like yours are so empty.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 381 by Phat, posted 01-09-2018 12:26 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 383 by Phat, posted 01-09-2018 12:41 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 405 of 696 (827487)
01-26-2018 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 383 by Phat
01-09-2018 12:41 PM


Re: Consensus
Phat writes:
Everyone is trying to get you to accept the possibility of miracles.
The topic is the science of miracles. It's science that doesn't accept miracles.
Phat writes:
I realize that evidence is not always available and is usually not plentiful even if available.
If there isn't enough evidence to decide one way or another, then one belief is as good as another.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by Phat, posted 01-09-2018 12:41 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 411 by Percy, posted 01-26-2018 3:19 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 406 of 696 (827488)
01-26-2018 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 389 by Percy
01-10-2018 2:55 PM


Percy writes:
George sees an electron travel through the left slit. To what does he attribute the choice of slit?
Show me a scientific paper that attributes it to a miracle.
Percy writes:
This makes whether something is miraculous dependent upon the observer's (rather than science's) knowledge and expertise, so it both isn't a useful definition and does disagree with Wikipedia.
On the contrary, Wikipedia mentions the miracle of the sun. The Catholic Church calls it a miracle. Science does not. That's how the word "miracle" is actually used.
Percy writes:
If a miracle occurred, how would it make it any less a miracle if the cause remained unknown?
Why would a flashlight be called a miracle by somebody who doesn't know the cause?
Percy writes:
But the results are not inconclusive. I provided the example ....
You provided a fairy tale. I provided a real example, the miracle of the sun. It is considered a real miracle by the Roman Catholic Church but science does not acknowledge that any scientific laws were broken. Why can't you discuss the real example?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 389 by Percy, posted 01-10-2018 2:55 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 407 of 696 (827489)
01-26-2018 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 390 by Percy
01-10-2018 4:06 PM


Re: Consensus
Percy writes:
But if a scientific consensus calls it "inexplicable" that pretty much does mean it's inexplicable to everybody.
Does a scientific consensus ever call something "inexplicable"? It seems to me that there are likely to be a handful of possible explanations, none of which are accepted by a consensus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 390 by Percy, posted 01-10-2018 4:06 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 408 by Coyote, posted 01-26-2018 11:02 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 409 of 696 (827493)
01-26-2018 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 396 by Phat
01-11-2018 5:07 PM


Re: A Bridge Too Far
Phat writes:
Ahhh now I get it. ringo and I were debating whether my hypothetical God was a better source than ringo.
Nope. I am not my own source. Reality is.
Phat writes:
Lets get back to Percys Bridge. Have we agreed that it is unexplainable...?
Why not stick to reality? Look at the miracle of the sun. Science has several possible explanations.
Phat writes:
... it is up to the individual to label it a miracle or not?
That's all I'm saying. A miracle is something that is labelled a miracle by somebody who can't explain it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by Phat, posted 01-11-2018 5:07 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 439 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 410 of 696 (827494)
01-26-2018 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 398 by Phat
01-13-2018 2:32 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Phat writes:
Would we approach this event with a scientific mind or would we approach it with the awe that society might approach a hypothetical event such as The Rapture?
If the rapture happened exactly as told in the fairy tale, only fundamentalist Christians would interpret it as "the Rapture". Some other religious minds might interpret it as a miracle. Scientific minds would come up with possible explanations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 398 by Phat, posted 01-13-2018 2:32 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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