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Author | Topic: The "science" of Miracles | |||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Percy writes:
It's a more precise way. You're assuming that "may" has a more precise meaning than it actually does. You're using some very nit-picky points to try to tweak the definition of "miracle' in the direction you want it to go. Saying "may or may not" just a more colorful way of saying "may", but they mean the same thing. The fact is that the only distinction between a miracle and any other event is the attribution to "inexplicable" causes.
Percy writes:
When you say, "I'll see you on the weekend - it may be Saturday or it may be Sunday," you are restricting the possibilities to a list.
Look up "may". It means "expressing possibility." Percy writes:
That's the definition that you're clinging to. It isn't one that anybody uses.
It is absolutely conclusive that known laws of nature and science were broken, which is the definition of a miracle. Percy writes:
What if Santa Claus was elected President of the United States? Start a thread.
But what if an unambiguous miracle *did* happen?
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Percy writes:
Not obvious at all. I gave you an example: "I'll see you on the weekend - it may be Saturday or it may be Sunday." Not seeing you at all is not an option.
Obviously if attribution to one of those causes is only a possibility, then there must exist other possibilities, of which non-attribution is one. Percy writes:
It doesn't have to. It's clear from the context that a miracle is attributed to something. George sees a bright light, thinks it's a miracle and attributes it to the demon Wormwood. Jim sees the same bright light, understands how a flashlight works and attributes it to the laws of physics. The attribution is inherent.
Wikipedia did not say, "The attribution of such an event may be to a supernatural being (a deity), or may be to magic, or may be to a miracle worker, or may be to a saint or may be to a religious leader." Percy writes:
A miracle is an event that the observer can not explain, so he attributes it to supernatural causes. ...neither of you have suggested an alternative definition. That doesn't disagree with Wikipedia.
Percy writes:
Even you can't say it without using words like "ascribe", and yet you claim that that isn't an important aspect of the definition.
they unambiguously ascribe the cause to the supernatural or God. Percy writes:
The same way it responds to anything else. What it would not do is call it a "miracle". If the results were inconclusive, they would be called inconclusive.
But what if a miracle *did* occur? How would science respond?
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
~1.6 writes:
Consider the Miracle of the Sun, a.k.a. the Miracle of Fatima. People saw what they thought was a violation of the laws of physics - but scientists have suggested several possible explanations. What comes to my mind is the laws of physics was somehow violated and suspended for xyz to occur. What people are actually calling miracles - and in this case is confirmed as a miracle by the Roman Catholic Church - is not what we can't explain. It's what they can't explain.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Including science. Science doesn't have a "Goddidit" option, even for flying bridges.
Others refuse to ever consider such an explanation.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
~1.6 writes:
Nothing I've said in this thread has anything to do with whether or not I believe miracles can exist.
I get that you do not believe miracles can exist. ~1.6 writes:
If science calls something a miracle, I'm perfectly happy to call it a miracle. As far as I know, it's science that doesn't include the possibility of miracles.
And if something does, bear with me here.... IF something doeswould you be content to call that a miracle?
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
~1.6 writes:
As I've said, if science calls it a miracle, I have no problem with calling it a miracle. If somebody calls something "inexplicable", that doesn't mean it's inexplicable to everybody.
Do you?
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
What better source can you name?
Its like playing Simon Says with him, though he calls it Science Says.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Humans created science.
Perhaps the creator of science.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Nope. In fact, we were around for a long time before we figured it out.
But science existed before we did.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Nothing that humans created existed before humans created it. Is that so hard to understand?
So are you saying that nothing exists until we figure it out? Phat writes:
You're trying too hard to figure out what makes me an unbeliever. I'm an unbeliever because beliefs like yours are so empty.
That would explain why you are an unbeliever.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
The topic is the science of miracles. It's science that doesn't accept miracles.
Everyone is trying to get you to accept the possibility of miracles. Phat writes:
If there isn't enough evidence to decide one way or another, then one belief is as good as another.
I realize that evidence is not always available and is usually not plentiful even if available.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Percy writes:
Show me a scientific paper that attributes it to a miracle.
George sees an electron travel through the left slit. To what does he attribute the choice of slit? Percy writes:
On the contrary, Wikipedia mentions the miracle of the sun. The Catholic Church calls it a miracle. Science does not. That's how the word "miracle" is actually used.
This makes whether something is miraculous dependent upon the observer's (rather than science's) knowledge and expertise, so it both isn't a useful definition and does disagree with Wikipedia. Percy writes:
Why would a flashlight be called a miracle by somebody who doesn't know the cause?
If a miracle occurred, how would it make it any less a miracle if the cause remained unknown? Percy writes:
You provided a fairy tale. I provided a real example, the miracle of the sun. It is considered a real miracle by the Roman Catholic Church but science does not acknowledge that any scientific laws were broken. Why can't you discuss the real example?
But the results are not inconclusive. I provided the example ....
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Percy writes:
Does a scientific consensus ever call something "inexplicable"? It seems to me that there are likely to be a handful of possible explanations, none of which are accepted by a consensus.
But if a scientific consensus calls it "inexplicable" that pretty much does mean it's inexplicable to everybody.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Nope. I am not my own source. Reality is.
Ahhh now I get it. ringo and I were debating whether my hypothetical God was a better source than ringo. Phat writes:
Why not stick to reality? Look at the miracle of the sun. Science has several possible explanations.
Lets get back to Percys Bridge. Have we agreed that it is unexplainable...? Phat writes:
That's all I'm saying. A miracle is something that is labelled a miracle by somebody who can't explain it.
... it is up to the individual to label it a miracle or not?
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
If the rapture happened exactly as told in the fairy tale, only fundamentalist Christians would interpret it as "the Rapture". Some other religious minds might interpret it as a miracle. Scientific minds would come up with possible explanations.
Would we approach this event with a scientific mind or would we approach it with the awe that society might approach a hypothetical event such as The Rapture?
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