Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The "science" of Miracles
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 318 of 696 (826501)
01-03-2018 2:28 AM
Reply to: Message 316 by ICANT
01-02-2018 5:59 PM


ICANT writes:
Do a little fact checking before you spout off too loud.
How about you doing a little thinking before you jump up and down in outrage.
There has been 60 airplane crashes with only 1 survivor. Not all have been said to be miracle survivors.
Yes, not surprisingly, surviving a plane crash is unusual. And also not surprisingly when somebody does, it's colloquially described as 'miraculous'.
That is a long way from many thousands every year.
There are thousands of surprising and unusual survivals; they don't require aeroplanes. Or miracles.
Now, if our girl was lifted out of the aeroplane by a naked, winged cherub and flown gently to the ground to choirs of angels sat on clouds while the other passengers plummeted to their deaths, you might have a point.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by ICANT, posted 01-02-2018 5:59 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 319 by ICANT, posted 01-03-2018 10:10 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 322 of 696 (826520)
01-03-2018 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 319 by ICANT
01-03-2018 10:10 AM


ICANT writes:
How do you know that was not what happened?
Well it's just a hunch, but if that's what had happened I'm guessing she might have told us. Or there'd be witnesses. Absent that, we have no reason to suppose that is what happened have we?
She would have hit the ground traveling at 120 miles per hour without something slowing the process.
It's very unusual but not unprecedented for people to fall out of planes and survive. So let's see the full story please.
And if I did not believe in God I would just say she was one of the luckiest people in the world. As I would not believe in divine intervention.
What you or I believe is irrelevant. Let's see the evidence.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by ICANT, posted 01-03-2018 10:10 AM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by caffeine, posted 01-03-2018 2:27 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 330 of 696 (826534)
01-03-2018 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 325 by caffeine
01-03-2018 2:27 PM


ICANT writes:
She failed to report and cherubs, but to be fair she was unconscious:
Right, so no cherubs then.
I could see the canopy of the jungle spinning towards me. Then I lost consciousness and remember nothing of the impact.
So rather than what you said....
quote:
She would have hit the ground traveling at 120 miles per hour without something slowing the process.
  —ICANT
...she actually hit the tree canopy which would have cushioned her fall if she got lucky - which she evidently did.
No miraculous intervention then.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by caffeine, posted 01-03-2018 2:27 PM caffeine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 334 by caffeine, posted 01-04-2018 12:38 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 337 of 696 (826610)
01-05-2018 6:07 AM
Reply to: Message 336 by NoNukes
01-05-2018 4:54 AM


NoNukes writes:
In short, we cannot explain the miraculous. But often we cannot even explain the mundane. Hence inexplicability is insufficient to categorize the two.
I've used two hypothetical examples of what I claim would be miraculous to try to get beyond this point.
1. The priest chanting over a cup of wine changing it to blood on demand. Repeatedly. Chosen because Catholics claim this to be a real miraculous event and one that we know is not.
2. A bridge being lifted into the air by winged cherubs on the command of a priest.
These events could be tested to destruction by science and no natural causation would be found. The thing that makes these obvious miracles is that laws that we fully understand are being broken on demand through a human agent.
These are not universal events like gravity, they're localised and specific. They're also not effects at the edge of our understanding like quantum physics or dark matter, they're local interventions in stuff we fully understand. And they involve powers that we fully know that humans do not possess.
It's more than a little absurd to pretend that these things are just effects we don't understand yet, we're not stone age ignorants, we know a lot of stuff for sure about our world and we know for sure that it's impossible for materials to behave in that way. We'd be forced to conclude some form of magical intervention.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by NoNukes, posted 01-05-2018 4:54 AM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 338 by AlexCaledin, posted 01-05-2018 10:03 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 339 of 696 (826614)
01-05-2018 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 338 by AlexCaledin
01-05-2018 10:03 AM


AC writes:
magic intervention" hardly makes sense, considering the truth that everything is already pervaded and sustained by the Spirit from the very beginning.
Magic intervention and stuff being pervaded and sustained by the Spirit are both bonkers ideas.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by AlexCaledin, posted 01-05-2018 10:03 AM AlexCaledin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 354 by Phat, posted 01-08-2018 7:28 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 361 of 696 (826729)
01-08-2018 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 360 by Phat
01-08-2018 4:14 PM


Re: Consensus
Phat writes:
Ringo claims that your definition is not one that anybody uses, but I think what he means is that it is not one that everybody uses.
Nope, Ringo is just trying to define himself out of a problem.
All this nit-picking about 'may' and 'attribution' is just smoke, everybody knows what a miracle would look like if we saw one - even ringo. This is why he just refuses to discuss the hypothetical cases that would be declared an unmistakeable miracle.
He's being unscientific, refusing to follow the evidence wherever it leads as a matter of dogma. In this case semantics, the refuge of the scoundrel.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 360 by Phat, posted 01-08-2018 4:14 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 415 of 696 (827687)
01-29-2018 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 413 by Phat
01-29-2018 12:03 PM


Re: Consensus
Phat writes:
So you are suggesting that one cannot ever ascribe something as miraculous if they have any scientific education?
All he's doing Phat is saying that miracles can't exist for definitional reasons. After that there's nothing left to say. It's a semantic argument of no intrinsic worth.
Why is it so important to avoid the terminology?
Because he's arguing terminolgy :-) Tedious isn't it? It doesn't allow for an actual miracle, he just defines it out. Pointless.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 413 by Phat, posted 01-29-2018 12:03 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 427 of 696 (827765)
01-31-2018 5:38 PM


Ringo, we all know - including you - that miracles haven't happened. Most of us - including you - 'know' that they never will. As you also know, we're trying to put all that aside and try to imagine what would actually happen if something looking like an actual miracle actually happened.
If you don't want to play just say so.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

Replies to this message:
 Message 428 by Stile, posted 02-01-2018 10:26 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 429 of 696 (827785)
02-01-2018 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 428 by Stile
02-01-2018 10:26 AM


or something like thatTM
But what if the 'miracle' was repeated? What if a real faith healer appeared who could, in fact, make limbs grow back on demand, always?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 428 by Stile, posted 02-01-2018 10:26 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 433 by Stile, posted 02-01-2018 12:09 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 434 by Stile, posted 02-01-2018 12:17 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 435 of 696 (827802)
02-01-2018 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 434 by Stile
02-01-2018 12:17 PM


Stile writes:
If the phenomenon forever remains unknown, it will remain in the "miracle" pile. If it ever does become known, it will shift over into the "normal-framework-of-science" pile where everything else ends up.
I think that the appearance of a *real* faith healer - one that the Amazing Randi finally paid out his $1m out to - would change everything, from science to belief. It would have devastating results for our society and our religions.
It wouldn't just be a difficult problem that's currently stumping a few dusty specialists, it would be a global phenomenon that would rock both magisteria.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 434 by Stile, posted 02-01-2018 12:17 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 436 by Stile, posted 02-01-2018 1:39 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 437 of 696 (827809)
02-01-2018 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 436 by Stile
02-01-2018 1:39 PM


stile writes:
If the phenomenon forever remains unknown, it will remain in the "miracle" pile. If it ever does become known, it will shift over into the "normal-framework-of-science" pile where everything else ends up.
I think you underestimate the effect of a real life Jesus doing real miracles in the age of celebrity, TV, Twitter and FaceAche. We'd be lucky if there weren't wars.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 436 by Stile, posted 02-01-2018 1:39 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 440 by Stile, posted 02-02-2018 9:15 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 442 of 696 (827837)
02-02-2018 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 440 by Stile
02-02-2018 9:15 AM


Stile writes:
There are many different possible ways such a thing could unfold.
There are but I think the least probable is that the world sits back quietly interested like someone was going around bending spoons.
I think (hope?) you underestimate the ability of normal people to eventually advance the world in good ways.
The world is capable of making stuttering progress and has been doing reasonably well for the last couple of centuries - with some major exceptions - but human nature is such that major change often breaks the veneer of civilisation. Power cuts create riots, disasters start looting, shortages start panic buying, mistakes create wars etc. It's a very fine balance.
Many parts of the world and parts of our own societies are not rational or democratic. We really can't be complacent about future.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 440 by Stile, posted 02-02-2018 9:15 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(3)
Message 458 of 696 (827918)
02-05-2018 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 457 by ringo
02-05-2018 11:36 AM


Re: Consensus
ringo writes:
Calling something a "miracle" is entirely subjective, which is why scientists don't do it.
Nope. If a miracle - like the ones we've posited and you've refused to discuss - happened, they would be thoroughly open to objective analysis.
The reason why scientists don't use the word miracle is because they've not yet found one.
But what if.....

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 457 by ringo, posted 02-05-2018 11:36 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 460 by ringo, posted 02-05-2018 12:10 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 462 by Phat, posted 02-05-2018 12:13 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 464 of 696 (827924)
02-05-2018 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 460 by ringo
02-05-2018 12:10 PM


Re: Consensus
ringo writes:
If scientists analyzed it, they'd propose explanations.
And if they found no explanations, then what? Silence?
By definition, it would not be "inexplicable" and it wouldn't be considered a miracle.
You're making the mistake of assuming that objective analysis must conclude with a natural explanation.
In other words you're just doing what you've done from the start - attempt to define away a problem. Doesn't work, the flying bridge is still there hanging in the sky awaiting an explanation that can't be found in any natural process regardless of your head-in-sand approach.
It's ironic that if such things ever happened it would *only* be science that could legitimately declare it a miracle.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 460 by ringo, posted 02-05-2018 12:10 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 469 by ringo, posted 02-06-2018 10:38 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 465 of 696 (827925)
02-05-2018 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 462 by Phat
02-05-2018 12:13 PM


Re: Consensus
ringo writes:
Ringo seems to argue that true science would never resort to using the M word.
Yeh, I noticed :-)
My counter-argument is that scientists speak as individuals and not as a group. Thus, some may use the M word and others would stick with currently unexplainable....
I think we can all agree - with one pig-headed exception - that if the events we've discussed *did* happen, the overwhelming majority of human kind would call it a miracle, not just the odd scientist.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 462 by Phat, posted 02-05-2018 12:13 PM Phat has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024