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Author | Topic: The "science" of Miracles | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Phat writes: Ringo claims that your definition is not one that anybody uses, but I think what he means is that it is not one that everybody uses. Nope, Ringo is just trying to define himself out of a problem. All this nit-picking about 'may' and 'attribution' is just smoke, everybody knows what a miracle would look like if we saw one - even ringo. This is why he just refuses to discuss the hypothetical cases that would be declared an unmistakeable miracle. He's being unscientific, refusing to follow the evidence wherever it leads as a matter of dogma. In this case semantics, the refuge of the scoundrel.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Percy Member Posts: 22391 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Phat writes: Ringo claims that your definition is not one that anybody uses, but I think what he means is that it is not one that everybody uses. All we need is a definition of "miracle" that we agree on. I'm open to suggestions for how best to define "miracle" for this discussion. --Percy
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1504 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Why don't we do a poll?
When someone says to me, "......something, something was a miracle." What comes to my mind is the laws of physics was somehow violated and suspended for xyz to occur. It may not be the correct definition but that is what I have always thought was meant by the word miracle. What is a alternative definition that is being used?"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Percy writes:
Not obvious at all. I gave you an example: "I'll see you on the weekend - it may be Saturday or it may be Sunday." Not seeing you at all is not an option.
Obviously if attribution to one of those causes is only a possibility, then there must exist other possibilities, of which non-attribution is one. Percy writes:
It doesn't have to. It's clear from the context that a miracle is attributed to something. George sees a bright light, thinks it's a miracle and attributes it to the demon Wormwood. Jim sees the same bright light, understands how a flashlight works and attributes it to the laws of physics. The attribution is inherent.
Wikipedia did not say, "The attribution of such an event may be to a supernatural being (a deity), or may be to magic, or may be to a miracle worker, or may be to a saint or may be to a religious leader." Percy writes:
A miracle is an event that the observer can not explain, so he attributes it to supernatural causes. ...neither of you have suggested an alternative definition. That doesn't disagree with Wikipedia.
Percy writes:
Even you can't say it without using words like "ascribe", and yet you claim that that isn't an important aspect of the definition.
they unambiguously ascribe the cause to the supernatural or God. Percy writes:
The same way it responds to anything else. What it would not do is call it a "miracle". If the results were inconclusive, they would be called inconclusive.
But what if a miracle *did* occur? How would science respond?
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
That sounds like a good enough one for me. As a believer, I usually think that God or another supernatural force/being can be involved, but for the purposes of this forum and discussion, that need not apply. The cause is unknown. The effects are reportable yet subjective by necessity.
Percys Bridge Scenario fits the definition for the purposes of discussion. Ringo may be arguing that one cannot create hypotheticals out of thin air and that there are no as yet verifiable miracles...so my next question is this: Are there any documented and verifiable instances that appear to have violated the known laws of science and physics anywhere that we can reference? If not, I can see ringos point that all we have are contrived hypotheticals which arguably would qualify as a start to consensus.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: More correctly, some observers attribute it to supernatural causes. Others refuse to ever consider such an explanation. Thus, much of our definition for the purposes of consensus revolves around consensus on our individual subjectivity. A miracle is an event that the observer can not explain, so he attributes it to supernatural causes. What I might take a leap into defining, you might wait until the cows come home before offering a tentative definition. Percy is attempting to persuade you to agree on the semantics, but you by nature always like to argue ---you seem to have great skills at pointing out exceptions to any and every rule or suggestion. Question for you: Does the word Miracle seem to imply an inference towards the supernatural? Is this why you refuse to use it?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
~1.6 writes:
Consider the Miracle of the Sun, a.k.a. the Miracle of Fatima. People saw what they thought was a violation of the laws of physics - but scientists have suggested several possible explanations. What comes to my mind is the laws of physics was somehow violated and suspended for xyz to occur. What people are actually calling miracles - and in this case is confirmed as a miracle by the Roman Catholic Church - is not what we can't explain. It's what they can't explain.
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Including science. Science doesn't have a "Goddidit" option, even for flying bridges.
Others refuse to ever consider such an explanation.
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kjsimons Member Posts: 821 From: Orlando,FL Joined: Member Rating: 6.7
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ringo writes:
With all the advances of science, if I saw a flying bridge I might first wonder, after I recovered from my initial shock, if somebody's anti-gravity experiment had gotten out of control!
Science doesn't have a "Goddidit" option, even for flying bridges.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1504 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined:
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Ringo writes: What people are actually calling miracles - and in this case is confirmed as a miracle by the Roman Catholic Church - is not what we can't explain. It's what they can't explain. I get that you do not believe miracles can exist. I get that you seem to be of the camp that believes what ever has ever been deemed a miracle is simply something that has yet to be fully explained. Given all that; humanity still does not KNOW if something can ever happen that will violate or suspend the laws of nature.And if something does, bear with me here.... IF something does would you be content to call that a miracle? Will you break out in a rash and convulse on the floor if you use the word miracle? Even in fiction miracles can't occur in your world? No deus ex machina for you."You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
~1.6 writes:
Nothing I've said in this thread has anything to do with whether or not I believe miracles can exist.
I get that you do not believe miracles can exist. ~1.6 writes:
If science calls something a miracle, I'm perfectly happy to call it a miracle. As far as I know, it's science that doesn't include the possibility of miracles.
And if something does, bear with me here.... IF something doeswould you be content to call that a miracle?
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1504 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Ringo writes:
Do you? Nothing I've said in this thread has anything to do with whether or not I believe miracles can exist."You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
~1.6 writes:
As I've said, if science calls it a miracle, I have no problem with calling it a miracle. If somebody calls something "inexplicable", that doesn't mean it's inexplicable to everybody.
Do you?
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Its like playing Simon Says with him, though he calls it Science Says.
Do Miracles Exist?
ringo: Not unless science says they do.
Do you? You forgot to say Simon Says! Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1504 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined:
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Edited by Admin, : Narrow image width."You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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