Who Made God?

Hi Phat, That is the wrong question Phat.You should have asked how much energy was required to create your body.Just like the paperclip.It took 90,000,000,000,000 Joules of energy to make that paperclip.That means it took a very, very, very, very huge amount of energy to create this universe and everything in it.Maybe Son has a formula to tell us exactly the amount of energy that had to be packed into the pin point of energy that created the universe and everything in it.God Bless,

Hi Son,Long time we no argue. I don't have time to look it up at the moment. But if memory serves me right Stephen Hawking said that in a vacuum these particles will appear and when they do they will create a universe just like ours.I will see if I can find it later. Must pick up one of my church members from the hospital and take them home.And yes it is a complete universe with four dimensions with imaginary time being in the vertical direction. That is not the way it is treated at EvC.God Bless,

Hi Phat, Until you can settle the question of whether the universe had a beginning to exist or is eternal you can never form a hypothesis of the cause.There is no way that the universe could be eternal in the form it is today due to running out of energy.There is no way it could have a beginning to exist without a cause. that could supply all the energy necessary to produce all the mass in the universe.I would call that source God.
Stephen Hawkings would call it an instanton proving we do not have a need of God.
Other's have called it the God particle and have spent billions looking for it.I have always said I believe it has existed eternally in the past just not in the form it is today.I hold that view as no one can tell me when the beginning was. Moses simply said "In the beginning" There is no way to define that moment, or give evidence of such.That is not because people have not tried.I say that the only possible answer is an eternal all powerful source that had infinite power is the source.I call that eternal source God.
If God is manmade He has no power and we are left with a bunch of fairy tales. I believe in a just, loving God who controls all the energy in the universe. He also has enough energy to create an infinite number of universes as He has infinite power. My God is not the puny god most on this site refer to when they mention god. My God has the ability to stop the earth from turning and you would never know it stopped. Yea I know that sounds silly. But my God has all power which means He can do anything He desires to do. My God has enough power to cause the earth and the universe to disintegrate instantly by just speaking.I do not serve a little God.God Bless,

Hi Stile, What would you think of a glass-blower if he could produce the material the glass is made of, out of nothing. Simply by speaking it into existence, would you then think he was God.And you don't think that the statement that all the energy required to create the universe and everything in it was at one time pilled on top of each other in a place the size of a pin point sounds just as impressive and impossible.God Bless,

Hi Son, I have spent the last couple of days trying to find Professor Hawkings paper and lecture on the instanton that we have discussed in the past. None of the links work as he has changed his website and removed several articles including the one on the instanton. I have a copy of them on a hard drive somewhere but that will take a lot of time to find.Since he has discarded his earlier instanton claims I see no need in trying to find them. He put out a paper in 2016 Phantom of the Hartle-Hawking instanton: connecting inflation with dark energy.He has many more assumptions in this paper than he had in the previous 2 papers on the instanton. I have not studied it enough to conclude anything. I have not been able to comprehend where he might have for the origin of the instanton in this paper. I will study it in more detail when the time is available.But since he discarded his earlier views I will do the same. It doesn't do any good to beat a dead horse as Nator's avatar of old. In one of my threads you and cavediver was discussing Stephen Hawkings no boundary universe that came from the instanton. In his comments he said he skipped the BBT and went straight to the no boundary universe. If you don't remember that I will look it up when I get time. I have never advocated that the BBT explained the origins of the universe. I been told too many times that the BBT tries to explain what happened beginning at T=10^-43 s.My problem with that is that there are certain assumptions that must be accepted (believed happened) in order for the BBT to describe what happened after T=10^-43 s. Some facts would be great to base things on that assumptions.
Do you have any?The Bible gives me information that has been proven by observations today. The Bible predicted the earth was round, there was a period of uniform light in the universe, and the earth was placed in the heavens and her path was set.It made all those predictions over 2,400 year ago.God Bless,

Hi Son, There was no one around to observe anything so that is out of the question.You say the BBT makes predictions. These are devised from the assumption made by men.The BBT has 20 problems that would disqualify any other theory.
Man, Alan Guth tried to to fix these problems with his inflation hypothesis.Sir Roger Penrose says inflation is a fantasy.The biggest assumption of all is that the universe began to expand at T=10^-43 s.No one knows what or if anything existed at T=10^-43 s.
Since no one knows what was there or if anything was there how can anyone know what took place?So you and others want me to believe that something began to expand at T=10^-43 s. But I can't question how that something got there in order to begin to expand. How did that something begin to exist anyway? It had to be eternal in existence of it had to be created by an eternal existence with a lot of power.I would call anything that could create the universe and everything in it God.We have 3 choices.
1. The universe has always existed.
2 The universe began to exist where there was non existence.
3. The universe was created by an all powerful eternal God.#1 is impossible as the universe would be dead.
#2 is impossible as existence cannot begin to exist
#3 is the only logical choice.God Bless,

Hi Phat, I would be interested in any other options also.God Bless,

Hi Stile, Are you sure about that?I forget who said, "it is like it is today because it was like that in the past". Since we do not know what the that was like we do not know what or how it happened. Yes that is true. But you also know that because you can plant seeds and get seedlings which will grow into trees.In other words you have empirical evidence that can be reproduced over and over.This universe began to exist only one time and you have no empirical reproducible evidence of what took place. If inflation is a fantasy as Sir Roger Penrose states the BBT needs a lot or shoring up where inflation was supposed to have fixed. You talk about the BB like something banged, what was it that banged?I was under the impression that Son's little pea sized universe he told me about just began to expand and that was all there was to it. That is the problem there is no empirical evidence and can never be as there is no scientific data available of what was there or what took place.Because of that restriction, they will give no answer. It was either eternal or the universe began to exist from non existence. I did not say because I thought or anyone else though.I just think that anything that could cause the universe and everything in it to begin to exist would deserve the title of God. You call it whatever you want too. I have never seen a natural process that did not require matter to work with to do anything. Could you name one? Not my words, but the words of the scientist that decided we needed a beginning to exist of the universe. It would be cold dark and lifeless had it been around for infinity. I believe it has something to do with some of the laws science has discovered. You really getting silly now, what you drinking?In the rest of your post I will insert my comments to save time. Comment: Same as #2.
Where did the energy required to accomplish the job come from?I hope you had fun with that just don't expect a reply to any such drivel in the future.God Bless,

Hi Son, You are talking about circumstantial evidence. Assumptions are involved.

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Despite the self-consistency and remarkable success of the standard Hot Big Bang model in describing the evolution of the universe back to only one hundreth of a second, a number of unanswered questions remain regarding the initial state of the universe.

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1. The flatness problem.
2. The horizon problem.
3. The density fluctuation problem.
4. The dark matter problem.
5. The exotic relics problem.
6. The thermal state problem.
7. The cosmological constant problem.
8. The singularity problem.
9. The timescale problem.

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Page not found | Relativity and Gravitation Group Didn't you tell me in the past that the pea sized universe expanded at T=10^-43 s.Is there empirical evidence of anything existing at T=10^-42 s?Is the earliest time we claim to have evidence for T=10^-43 s?If the universe is expanding at T=10^-43 s. and we don't know anything about T=10^-42 s, wouldn't we have to assume it started expanding at T=10^-43 s.There is no way we can know what was going on "without making some assumptions". The quote is from Stephen Hawking. Are you saying it does not cover from T=10^-43 s to present? That is as close to the origin as science can get. But this thread is about orgins.Why would we discuss who made God if it did not concern origins.There would be no need for such a discussion if it wasn't for the creation debate.The best proof that God is eternal and all powerful is that the universe exists today.There are three choices.1. The universe has always existed.
This would be an eternal universe solid state theory.2. The universe began to exist where there was non existence
Non existence means: no space, no time, no energy, no
matter, and no little pea sized universe to expand.3. The universe and everything in it was created by an eternal all
Powerful God.The option I actually believe and have stated numerous times on this site.4. The universe has always existed in some form just not in the form it is today. Somewhere in eternity past (I will let you guys guess the numbers) The all powerful eternal God I serve created the heavens and the earth in 1 light period (day as described by God Genesis 1:5). God spoke and the events you talk about taking place
happened, There was much preparation needed for the earth to be ready to be inhabited by mankind. There was the matter of at least four trillion barrels of oil not to mention the natural gas and coal. For the oil to get to the point in the earth it is today the surface of the earth had to be there. As there was no darkness there everything was bountiful. In the process of duration this vegetation and water animals were covered to provide the material for the fossil fuel we get from the deep wells. When there were much matter to be covered it was and this process went on until the earth had grown to the size it is now.So nothing you can give me that you think happened during that light period would surprise me. The Bible reveals that light period is there. When you talk about the cmbr I have no problem in believing it exists. The Bible teaches me the earth is round and that its path is directed. Not only that but all the stars and planets have fixed paths they take. The Bible teaches that the all of earths dry mass was connected in one place at one time in the past. The :Bible teaches that it was divided. The Bible teaches critters will produce critter like themselves. (they do, I have never seen one produce something else).) The Bible teaches mankind will fly. The Bible teaches we will have wrecks on the highways. The Bible teaches we will be able to see pictures around the world. The Bible teaches we will be able to talk around the world I will stop there but there are many more.All of these predictions were made at least 2400 years ago. They were written down and have come to pass.Need sleep that will do for now.God Bless,

Hi Stile, Because the lurkers may not be aware that we at least agree that science does not have an answer for the origin of the universe. You mention BBT and then Big Bang without theory behind it. If you print the abbreviations for the words meaning Big Bang what am I supposed to believe you are talking about. Then stick with saying what you mean. Sure I believe the heavens have been stretched out and did not need the BBT to tell me it had as I knew that information in 1955 before I heard anything about the BBT in 1993.

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45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
  —Isaiah

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That information was provided at least 2,681 years ago.
And no I would not be surprised to find things such as the universe was bathed in light for a very long time before darkness was created.
Isaiah 45:7 Lets examine the facts.
1. We do not know what existed at T=10^-44 s.
2. Whatever existed at T=10^-43 s was:

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At the earliest point we can measure the universe is already at 1,160,400,000,000,000 degrees.

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Son Goku Message 295
What would you propose to plow through that hot dense universe to get information prior to T=10^-43 s?Ten years ago Son gave an answer to that question. Message 292

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Well gravitational wave astronomy may be able to see further when the technology is advanced enough. The Large Hadron Collider in CERN may be able to learn something. Plus there are several cosmological tests of theories about the previous era. However it's a difficult area and it could take some time.

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1. The universe exists.
2. Has it existed for infinity? If it has not existed eternally.
3. Did it have a beginning to exist?It had to exist eternally or have a beginning to exist as it does exist today.And no I don't know it all. If I did I would not be here wasting my time trying to learn new things.BTW I don't care if you believe anything I say or not. It is no skin off my teeth.So which way did it get here? What we think we know.
There was the pea sized universe that existed at T=10^-43 s in which all the energy, mass and matter that is in the present universe existed. Can you imagine the power required to accomplish a feat such as that?My question is what held it in place after it got there until it decided to expand?God Bless,Edited by ICANT, : corrected #

Hi Son,Just a small question that I passed on earlier. Would you be measuring something that was physical that you could hold in your hand?How do you compare something you can hold in your hand and examine with something that you can not hold nor test as you could the soil?

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ICANT SAID: We have 3 choices.
1. The universe has always existed.
2 The universe began to exist where there was non existence.
3. The universe was created by an all powerful eternal God.

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#1 is impossible as the universe would be dead.
#2 is impossible as existence cannot begin to exist
#3 is the only logical choice.

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Let me phrase the above in 2 simple questions.1. What would be the state of the universe today if it existed for infinity?2. Is it possible for existence to begin to exist?Thanks in advance,God Bless,

Hi Stile, The BBT abbreviation is not the one I was questioning you about.
I was questioning you about the BB abbreviation you used in the same sentence.In other words I took it you were referring to the theory in the BBT but that you were referring to a BANG with the BB abbreviation. I can't read minds and don't think I would like to be able too. So you don't think it would require a huge abount of pure energy to cause the universe to begin to exist. I think the description of the Planck epoch describes a tremendous amount of energy. A quintillion degrees would require a lot of energy. Our sun is only 9,941F. So when we talk of the Planck epoch we are talking of a lot of energy.A large amount of information is needed to be inserted in the creation to make everything work which would have to be supplied by whatever caused the universe to exist.That is the reason I say anything that could cause the universe and everything in it to begin to exist would be God because it would meet the requirements to be able to produce the universe and everything in it.This entity would have to be eternal or have a creator itself. I will agree that is what we are told. I just can't find, or get enough empirical evidence by asking to convince me that information is correct. And I keep giving you the answer. The universe exists today. Can't you understand that?If neither of my ways of the universe beginning to exist is right then how did it get here? I gave you the reason. You only said what I had already said just in a different form which meant the same thing. Could you please explain how zero or a small amount of energy could produce a temperature of one quintillion degrees? Then how does the universe exist today?I remember what Ravin said: "It just is". (which would make it eternal) After what? Did you think about what you were saying? So the universe existed eternally in the past? Is that what you are saying?If so why did it wait so long to begin to expand?
Also what caused it to start to expand? That is a fact. The universe could not have existed eternally in the past. A profound statement, I will agree.After discussing multiverses and eternal universes Mithani and Vilenkin came to say:
The conclusion is inescapable. "None of these scenarios can actually be past-eternal".Mathematics of Eternity Prove The Universe Must Have Had A Beginning | MIT Technology ReviewThis is due to the evidence that our universe is expanding, then it must also have been born in the past.That only leaves one possibility as far as science is concerned.
The universe had a beginning to existBut if my God is the one who created the heavens and earth as He claimed to. The universe could have well exited eternally in the past just not in the form it is today, as it would never run out of an energy source and could be recharged anytime God so chose to do so.God Bless,

Hi NoNukes, You mean the question I asked:What would you propose to plow through that hot dense universe to get information prior to T=10-43 s?Is nonsense?Since nothing can be said about anything happening prior to T=10-43 s, and the universe is 1 quintillion degrees how would you propose to get any information past T=10-43 s?God Bless,Edited by ICANT, : No reason given.

Hi Phat Who said anything about giving up science? True science is necessary, why do you think God gave the knowledge we have today?
Whenever experiments are done that advances medicine and all the other advances are great. But when people stick their head in the sand and rule out everything except their on particular religion disaster can result.Phat either God exists or He does not exist. Make up your mind.Now lets see if I could see if there could possibly be a benefit to science if my God exists.Around the 1620's AD William Harvey discovered the life of the flesh was in the blood and was circulated by the heart. He published his "de Motu Cordis" in 1628.President George Washington was sick and was bleed of 82 ounces of blood 32 ounces of that being at the last bleeding sometime after 12 PM and died between 10 and 11 PM from the treatment.So he was assassinated slowly by doctors ignorance.Had science known what we know today he would have lived to a ripe old age in his retirement. But science at that time believed that you had to bleed the illness out of people.Had some scientist read and understood the Bible all those lives that were lost by bleeding people when they got sick may have been saved. Moses wrote over 2500 years ago:

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Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

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Every cell in the human body make up the flesh of that body. Each cell has to have energy, and oxygen to survive. The waste from that cell has to be removed. All of that is accomplished by the blood system, and kidneys.One more for now.In 1929, Edwin Hubble, an astronomer at Caltech, discovered that the universe is expanding.Had Sir Isaac Newton read and understood the torah he could have known that in the 1600's. Or anyone before him could have. All they had to do was to read and understand the Bible.

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Isaiah 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

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That verse tells me the universe is expanding as it is stretched out.
It also tells me that everything in the heavens have been specific things to do.In other words Phat if you don't know the origin of something all the assumptions you make about the origin and the following things that happened will probably be wrong.So yes I believe my eternal all powerful God created the heavens and the earth and everything therein.God Bless,
Edited by ICANT, : No reason given.

Hi NoNukes, Not really I was just still think using 10⁴³When I should have changed my thinking when I added the -.I can't figure out how there is any information at 10^-43 that can be retrieved from a quintillion degree glob of energy that is supposed to be the universe at that time.To me that seems to be just like me telling you I was talking to Michael (arch angel) and him telling me what was there. You would tell me I am crazy.But I would still like to know what you would propose to get through the universe at the temperature it is at 10^-43.What do you think the chances are of getting past 1x10^-6176 Would you say a probability of about 10^-250,000 or would you say closer to a monkey typing Hamlet on his first try getting the punctuation,capitalization and spacing correct.I am still pretty much going by memory so tell me if 1x10^-6176 is the closest I can get to T=0 with a positive #.God Bless,