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Author Topic:   Who Made God?
Son Goku
Member
Posts: 1118
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 316 of 369 (826873)
01-13-2018 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 312 by Taq
01-12-2018 3:31 PM


Re: Boom Goes The Dynamite
Having an accurate and reliable methodology is everything.

This is what I meant by the where and how must be sound. I still don't know if it is everything. It might be for science as a philosophical system, but for why people are motivated by it, want to do research I'm not so sure or as it is practiced, I'm not too sure.

However, a specific answer is not their motivation. Scientists weren't trying to produce 2.998E8 m/s for the speed of light. Scientists don't care what the number actually is as long as it is the product of good methodology and science.

I'm not sure that is something that is true in universal and I think it ignores qualitative answers.

For example if the Higgs mass is over ~ 650GeV it implies the universe is very different from if it is under 650Gev. I think people do care about the actual value in this case and in several other cases as they want to understand the world.

Also in several cases the numerical results are simply to confirm a qualitative fact. "Does spin couple to magnetism?" and other such qualitative answers are all checked by numerical results, but people care about the qualitative answer. Not just that the method it was arrived at with was sound.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you.

Edited by Son Goku, : Addition.

Edited by Son Goku, : No reason given.

Edited by Son Goku, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by Taq, posted 01-12-2018 3:31 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5981
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 317 of 369 (826877)
01-13-2018 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 314 by NoNukes
01-13-2018 2:54 AM


Re: Eternal power (energy)
Hi NoNukes,

NoNukes writes:

Sigh. 10-42 is a tiny fraction of a second later than 10-43 which makes your sentence nonsense.

You mean the question I asked:

What would you propose to plow through that hot dense universe to get information prior to T=10-43 s?

Is nonsense?

Since nothing can be said about anything happening prior to T=10-43 s, and the universe is 1 quintillion degrees how would you propose to get any information past T=10-43 s?

God Bless,

Edited by ICANT, : No reason given.


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by NoNukes, posted 01-13-2018 2:54 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by NoNukes, posted 01-13-2018 1:44 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 324 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-14-2018 12:16 AM ICANT has responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 318 of 369 (826890)
01-13-2018 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 317 by ICANT
01-13-2018 8:41 AM


Re: Eternal power (energy)
What would you propose to plow through that hot dense universe to get information prior to T=10-43 s?

Is nonsense?

Okay, $#@#$. 10-42 is not prior to 10-43.

Get it now? Or do you need a lecture on the number line.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by ICANT, posted 01-13-2018 8:41 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 320 by ICANT, posted 01-13-2018 10:00 PM NoNukes has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5981
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


(1)
Message 319 of 369 (826901)
01-13-2018 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by Phat
01-13-2018 5:03 AM


Re: So What If God DID It?
Hi Phat

Phat writes:

To I CANT: Even if God exists and even if He is the God YOU understand, what possible benefit would it be for science to simply give up being science and trying to understand how events occur? For many of the science minded folks, studying in order to understand reality is priceless. Concluding that God Did It is a killjoy, in a way. Our creator gave us inquisitive minds for a reason.

Who said anything about giving up science? True science is necessary, why do you think God gave the knowledge we have today?
Whenever experiments are done that advances medicine and all the other advances are great. But when people stick their head in the sand and rule out everything except their on particular religion disaster can result.

Phat either God exists or He does not exist. Make up your mind.

Now lets see if I could see if there could possibly be a benefit to science if my God exists.

Around the 1620's AD William Harvey discovered the life of the flesh was in the blood and was circulated by the heart. He published his "de Motu Cordis" in 1628.

President George Washington was sick and was bleed of 82 ounces of blood 32 ounces of that being at the last bleeding sometime after 12 PM and died between 10 and 11 PM from the treatment.

So he was assassinated slowly by doctors ignorance.

Had science known what we know today he would have lived to a ripe old age in his retirement. But science at that time believed that you had to bleed the illness out of people.

Had some scientist read and understood the Bible all those lives that were lost by bleeding people when they got sick may have been saved. Moses wrote over 2500 years ago:

quote:
Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Every cell in the human body make up the flesh of that body. Each cell has to have energy, and oxygen to survive. The waste from that cell has to be removed. All of that is accomplished by the blood system, and kidneys.

One more for now.

In 1929, Edwin Hubble, an astronomer at Caltech, discovered that the universe is expanding.

Had Sir Isaac Newton read and understood the torah he could have known that in the 1600's. Or anyone before him could have. All they had to do was to read and understand the Bible.

quote:
Isaiah 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

That verse tells me the universe is expanding as it is stretched out.
It also tells me that everything in the heavens have been specific things to do.

In other words Phat if you don't know the origin of something all the assumptions you make about the origin and the following things that happened will probably be wrong.

So yes I believe my eternal all powerful God created the heavens and the earth and everything therein.

God Bless,

Edited by ICANT, : No reason given.


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by Phat, posted 01-13-2018 5:03 AM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 5981
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 320 of 369 (826903)
01-13-2018 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 318 by NoNukes
01-13-2018 1:44 PM


Re: Eternal power (energy)
Hi NoNukes,

NoNukes writes:

Okay, $#@#$. 10-42 is not prior to 10-43.

Get it now? Or do you need a lecture on the number line.

Not really I was just still think using 1043

When I should have changed my thinking when I added the -.

I can't figure out how there is any information at 10-43 that can be retrieved from a quintillion degree glob of energy that is supposed to be the universe at that time.

To me that seems to be just like me telling you I was talking to Michael (arch angel) and him telling me what was there. You would tell me I am crazy.

But I would still like to know what you would propose to get through the universe at the temperature it is at 10-43.

What do you think the chances are of getting past 1x10-6176 Would you say a probability of about 10-250,000 or would you say closer to a monkey typing Hamlet on his first try getting the punctuation,capitalization and spacing correct.

I am still pretty much going by memory so tell me if 1x10-6176 is the closest I can get to T=0 with a positive #.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by NoNukes, posted 01-13-2018 1:44 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 330 by NoNukes, posted 01-14-2018 1:29 PM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5981
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 321 of 369 (826904)
01-13-2018 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by Phat
01-13-2018 5:03 AM


Re: So What If God DID It?
Hi Phat,

I wanted to address this:

Phat writes:

To Everyone else: We believers somehow want all of you to believe as we believe

Phat what I believe is not necessarily what is required to please God. I might be lying or just plain wrong. But what God says is what is necessary to please Him. I am always announcing for the people not to trust what I say unless it agrees with what God's Word says. That is the reason I have spent so many years studying Greek and Hebrew.

So no I don't want everybody to believe what I believe. I do want them to believe what my eternal all powerful God says. But no one can make them believe, and God won't make them. It is completely the choice of each person.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by Phat, posted 01-13-2018 5:03 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 331 by Phat, posted 01-14-2018 1:33 PM ICANT has responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1247
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 322 of 369 (826906)
01-13-2018 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 319 by ICANT
01-13-2018 5:55 PM


Re: So What If God DID It?
quote:

Around the 1620's AD William Harvey discovered the life of the flesh was in the blood and was circulated by the heart. He published his "de Motu Cordis" in 1628.

President George Washington was sick and was bleed of 82 ounces of blood 32 ounces of that being at the last bleeding sometime after 12 PM and died between 10 and 11 PM from the treatment.

So he was assassinated slowly by doctors ignorance.

Had science known what we know today he would have lived to a ripe old age in his retirement. But science at that time believed that you had to bleed the illness out of people.

Had some scientist read and understood the Bible all those lives that were lost by bleeding people when they got sick may have been saved. Moses wrote over 2500 years ago:

quote:
Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.


This issue of life in the blood has to do with animals being allowed to be eaten by men after the flood.

It has to do with sacrifices (or so the excuse goes)

It was a way of respecting life (not spilling blood in the typical sense) as the means of the sacrifice.

http://biblehub.com/genesis/9-4.htm

There is no issue of the loss of blood causing death & fatality BEING UNKNOWN in the ancient world.

It was known to represent a vital life force.

quote:

All ancient nations hinged their beliefs about hema (blood) on their religious dogmas as related to mythology or the origins of religion. The Hellenes (Greeks) especially have always known hema as the well-known red fluid of the human body. Greek scientific considerations about blood date from Homeric times. The ancient Greeks considered hema as synonymous with life. In Greek myths and historical works, one finds the first references to the uninterrupted vascular circulation of blood, the differences between venous and arterial blood, and the bone marrow as the site of blood production. The Greeks also speculated about mechanisms of blood coagulation and the use of blood transfusion to save life.

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/anemia/2010/857657/


This is a long and detailed article that also covers Middle Eastern beliefs.

Put this into google or search engines.

"ancient texts blood being spilled"

This is a pointless apologetic claim.

The fact that sacrifice isn't performed anymore might not be an excuse for not knowing about blood sacrifices and the underling logic.

(How people that call themselves Christian can be so ignorant about sacrifice (think Jesus!) always amazes me, except for my awareness of the total complete brainwashing that is always going on)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by ICANT, posted 01-13-2018 5:55 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 333 by ICANT, posted 01-14-2018 10:46 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1247
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 323 of 369 (826907)
01-14-2018 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 304 by ICANT
01-12-2018 2:04 AM


Re: Eternal power (energy)
quote:

The option I actually believe and have stated numerous times on this site.

4. The universe has always existed in some form just not in the form it is today. Somewhere in eternity past (I will let you guys guess the numbers) The all powerful eternal God I serve created the heavens and the earth in 1 light period (day as described by God Genesis 1:5). God spoke and the events you talk about taking place
happened, There was much preparation needed for the earth to be ready to be inhabited by mankind.


So did God come after the Universe?

Because you never stated how God could get here.

You keep saying that SOMETHING CAN'T COME FROM NOTHING but previously you seemed to be saying God did that very thing.

Now what are you saying?

ANOTHER ISSUE

(you mentioned articles in a hard drive)

Can you please paste the text to your articles (like Hawking's) that no longer exist on the internet?

And can you please paste links to your articles when they are presently on the internet?

(This would help elicit responses that outline the various theories. I simply am too unread on the subject to be able to outline all the current cosmological theories, and I wouldn't understand many of them - especially if the math being understood is what counts as "understanding", because in that case I would be very ignorant of what is being said)

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by ICANT, posted 01-12-2018 2:04 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 334 by ICANT, posted 01-14-2018 11:17 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1247
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 324 of 369 (826908)
01-14-2018 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 317 by ICANT
01-13-2018 8:41 AM


Re: Eternal power (energy)
quote:

What would you propose to plow through that hot dense universe to get information prior to T=10-43 s?

Is nonsense?

Since nothing can be said about anything happening prior to T=10-43 s, and the universe is 1 quintillion degrees how would you propose to get any information past T=10-43 s?


Space is being created today, and even you would say it is naturalistic.

You say that God brought about the forces, which create the space, right?

The whole problem about this "beginning" being evidence that "proves God", is that you (and everybody else?) don't say where God came from.

A genuine effort would reveal that the EXACT SAME PROBLEMS would quickly arise once we attempted a solution for how God came to be in the first place.

"From nothing, then something (God)" ?

"He was always there" ?

All stated solutions that involve "God" can also be applied to some (non God based) form of Space and Matter itself.

Possibilities:

Space and Matter were part of something that always existed.

Space and matter evolved (or popped up under certain circumstances) from nothing.

Space and Matter were "eternal" in the same way God is described as "always being there".

Conclusion (for now):

The simple explanations all cancel each other out if one wants to make this "a God verses no God" cosmological origin issue.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by ICANT, posted 01-13-2018 8:41 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by Phat, posted 01-14-2018 11:56 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded
 Message 335 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2018 12:38 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6186
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 325 of 369 (826914)
01-14-2018 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 315 by Phat
01-13-2018 5:03 AM


Re: So What If God DID It?
Phat writes:

Some folks are much more fascinated by exploring the universe rather than conceptualizing GOD.

As you're addressing me, that's because we can do the former but not the latter. In fact the latter, has no meaning.

The God whom I believe in really does not care if you accept or believe in Him or not. I'm thinking (believing, considering) that He may want to know everyone, but that He won't force Himself on anyone. perhaps most of these religious topics are a waste of time for many of you.

You can imagine and believe absolutely anything you like, it doesn't mean anything at all though does it? It's just stuff you've made up.

(Im thinking of you Tangle! )

That's nice :-)


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by Phat, posted 01-13-2018 5:03 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11328
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 326 of 369 (826915)
01-14-2018 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 324 by LamarkNewAge
01-14-2018 12:16 AM


Re: Eternal power (energy)
LNA writes:

The whole problem about this "beginning" being evidence that "proves God", is that you (and everybody else?) don't say where God came from.

It has never occurred to me to wonder about this question. I guess that it was easy for me to conceptualize God as always existing, never having been created nor arriving from anywhere else.

Perhaps this internal certainty (some would call it a denial of reality) is part of my belief.

Humans can logically deduce that everything has to come from somewhere. What isnt so easy is to conceptualize the definition of what GOD would actually be like and whether Spirit has to follow the rules of logic that matter and energy have been pinned down as having.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-14-2018 12:16 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 328 by frako, posted 01-14-2018 1:01 PM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6186
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 327 of 369 (826919)
01-14-2018 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by Phat
01-14-2018 11:56 AM


Re: Eternal power (energy)
Phat writes:

It has never occurred to me to wonder about this question.

But this has been posed to you over and over! It's the classic uncaused cause, the infinite regression of 'if god made us who made god?’ You've heard these things hundreds of times!


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by Phat, posted 01-14-2018 11:56 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2792
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 328 of 369 (826923)
01-14-2018 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by Phat
01-14-2018 11:56 AM


Re: Eternal power (energy)
Humans can logically deduce that everything has to come from somewhere.

So where do virtual particles come from?


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by Phat, posted 01-14-2018 11:56 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 329 by Phat, posted 01-14-2018 1:22 PM frako has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11328
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 329 of 369 (826924)
01-14-2018 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 328 by frako
01-14-2018 1:01 PM


Re: Eternal power (energy)
Had to google that. Looks like the science is solid...have not found any conclusions yet.

I did read this article. Are virtual particles really constantly popping in and out of existence? Or are they merely a mathematical bookkeeping device for quantum mechanics? So as I understand it, one particle briefly becomes two heavier particles? Would that not mean they came from the original particle?

Still trying to wrap mind around maths.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by frako, posted 01-14-2018 1:01 PM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 332 by frako, posted 01-14-2018 2:24 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 330 of 369 (826925)
01-14-2018 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 320 by ICANT
01-13-2018 10:00 PM


Re: Eternal power (energy)
Do you know why there is any current limit on our ability to opine on the state of the universe? If not then your speculations about the probability of doing better are just idle typing.

And there is no smallest number just bigger than zero.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by ICANT, posted 01-13-2018 10:00 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 336 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2018 1:09 AM NoNukes has responded
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