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Author Topic:   Who Made God?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 329 of 868 (826924)
01-14-2018 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 328 by frako
01-14-2018 1:01 PM


Re: Eternal power (energy)
Had to google that. Looks like the science is solid...have not found any conclusions yet.
I did read this article. Are virtual particles really constantly popping in and out of existence? Or are they merely a mathematical bookkeeping device for quantum mechanics? So as I understand it, one particle briefly becomes two heavier particles? Would that not mean they came from the original particle?
Still trying to wrap mind around maths.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by frako, posted 01-14-2018 1:01 PM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 332 by frako, posted 01-14-2018 2:24 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 331 of 868 (826926)
01-14-2018 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 321 by ICANT
01-13-2018 10:26 PM


Re: So What If God DID It?
I CANT writes:
Phat either God exists or He does not exist. Make up your mind.
Now lets see if I could see if there could possibly be a benefit to science if my God exists.
Seems to me like you are doing what this cartoon suggests...starting with a conclusion. Which strictly speaking is not science.
So tell me what you think about what the cartoon suggests?
Just because i believe that God exists does not prohibit me from questioning how believers think.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 321 by ICANT, posted 01-13-2018 10:26 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 339 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2018 1:58 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 341 of 868 (826960)
01-15-2018 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 339 by ICANT
01-15-2018 1:58 AM


Re: So What If God DID It?
I CANT, I thought I would share with you an exchange that I had with my own Pastor, recently.
He likely thinks much the same way that you do, and I know that his reply will be ridiculed here at EvC, but nobody here is as well known by me as he is, and I value his input.
This is our conversation:
ME --my faith has been tested lately...I believe, but I dont believe in what people tell me I need to believe in.
I believe that Jesus is Lord, that He is alive today and that He is Gods Son, Creator of all seen and unseen, but I do not believe in a word for word literal Bible...that stuff you guys teach about a literal Genesis and all that...makes no sense logically. I refuse to simply shut my eyes tight and declare that I believe THAT!
PASTOR--That’s your pitfall. The foundation of our faith is in Genesis. If you don’t believe that your foundation is built on sand and your faith will never be stable.
ME--I just have to be honest...I cant believe in something that is not logical.
Ken Ham is not a strong Christian, by the way. The reason I come to bug you is that I believe that you are, but my issue is with God and not humans.(although some humans are willfully ignorant)
PASTOR--You want a creator who does things according to your logic. You fail to realize He is beyond what our brains can fathom.
ME--my intelligence is likely my downfall...I wish I could just have the trusting faith of a child, but I must be honest with myself
and yes you have a point...
PASTOR--Your intelligence? Think about that statement. Your intelligence. It’s minuscule in comparison to an infinite God.
ME--I know. that I DO believe!
PASTOR--You.... you are your own issue. You have to learn the all-important lesson of dying to self.
I CANT writes:
Making the statement "Even if" is questioning God's existence.
The reason that I frame my statements that way is to present my belief the way that many people at EvC would understand. jar taught me the idea that God cannot be proven, thus to frame the issue as a belief against reality is more honest than to declare that what I believe is reality.
Edited by Phat, : spelling
Edited by Phat, : explanation

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2018 1:58 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 351 by ICANT, posted 01-18-2018 12:19 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 342 of 868 (826968)
01-15-2018 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 340 by frako
01-15-2018 4:58 AM


Re: Eternal power (energy)
This article helped me conceptualize the idea of a universe expanding into space.
What is the universe expanding into? (Intermediate) - Curious About Astronomy? Ask an Astronomer
Edited by Phat, : fixed broken link

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by frako, posted 01-15-2018 4:58 AM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 343 by frako, posted 01-15-2018 10:15 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 344 of 868 (826973)
01-15-2018 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 343 by frako
01-15-2018 10:15 AM


Re: Eternal power (energy)
What is the universe expanding into? (Intermediate) - Curious About Astronomy? Ask an Astronomer

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by frako, posted 01-15-2018 10:15 AM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 345 by frako, posted 01-15-2018 11:06 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 366 of 868 (827224)
01-20-2018 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 365 by LamarkNewAge
01-20-2018 12:14 PM


Googling Information vs Applied Common Sense
When engaging in scholarly debates, being adept at googling is hardly a substitute for actually studying Hebrew and/or having a concordance. Google is full of information but the challenge is to apply the information so as to make a point, rather than simply flooding the discussion with links, articles, and ancient practices.
Personally, I find that one is less likely to arrive at wisdom through studying ancient beliefs than from applying what we learn to our daily experience, discipline, motivation, and intention.
I believe that GOD exists and is aware of us and our experience, intent, and attitude towards each other. One major question to be resolved is whether GOD (Through Jesus Christ according to Christian Belief) interacts with humanity in any meaningful or relational way.
The ancient folks are no closer nor any farther than we are from addressing this today.
Edited by Phat, : spellcheck

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 365 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-20-2018 12:14 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 368 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-20-2018 4:12 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 369 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-20-2018 5:06 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 370 of 868 (845070)
12-11-2018 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 339 by ICANT
01-15-2018 1:58 AM


Re: So What If God DID It?
Can you start a conversation with me here in my new topic? I appreciate your time.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2018 1:58 AM ICANT has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 371 of 868 (849099)
02-24-2019 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by ringo
01-18-2013 11:59 AM


Re: The apologists defense of the literalist faith
ringo writes:
Asking, "Who made God?" is like asking, "Who made all of those cars?" Just like cars, those gods were made by a lot of different manufacturers, often with different goals in mind.
OK, going with your analogy... let's examine 3 models. The first model is who the Jews perceived around the time of Jesus birth and also around the time Saul of Tarsus was afoot. The second model was the one whom Jesus called Father.
The third model was the one that allegedly knocked Saul off his high horse and spurned him into becoming Paul and starting a new religion. One could argue that a real God existed amongst these contenders...and I would argue that Jesus knew the real one, only because He worked at the relationship harder than most people. If people had to endure the suffering in life, harsh conditions, and lack of promise that those early people went through, one might see more people praying longer, fasting more, and studying the scriptures more independently yet diligently. People these days place their hope in science and technology to alleviate suffering. While it can go a long way, (my eye operation was a stellar success!) we still seek a source with solutions.
ringo writes:
The problem is that there are so many logically consistent gods, each with his own definite character. You seem to concede that some of them are made up. I'm just wondering why you think one is different.
I'm hoping one is different. I'm hoping one is actually real. I'm realizing as I get older that there are some problems in life that have no solutions. Do I expect a giant fairy to magically poof a solution? At times I do, but I know better. What I expect is a source of wisdom that will either inspire me to think of a solution or offer me one.
ringo writes:
How do you distinguish between "the best of many" (which only includes the ones you've met) and "only one exists"?
God forbid we have a polytheistic universe. I prefer a monotheistic reality. A committee of Gods would more likely turn down my requests.
ringo writes:
Which is worse? To wait your whole life without knowing or to spend your whole life being wrong?
It depends on what you get out of it. There is an employee at work named Tommy. For months I mistakenly called him Troy. He never corrected me, but I heard of my error through others. In that case, I was wrong, but still reaped the benefit of knowing him by a different name for months. If I simply waited for God to reveal His name to me, I would never get an opportunity to begin to get to know Him. So what if people think I'm talking to the air? So what if I hear only my own voice echoing back to me? My point is that you have concluded that God likely isn't here. I have concluded that He likely is. Is either position any worse than the other?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by ringo, posted 01-18-2013 11:59 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 372 by ringo, posted 02-24-2019 3:50 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 373 of 868 (849103)
02-24-2019 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 372 by ringo
02-24-2019 3:50 PM


Re: The apologists defense of the literalist faith
You always go with Leprechauns, dont you? Lets ask Wiki.
Wiki writes:
The earliest known reference to the leprechaun appears in the medieval tale known as the Echtra Fergus mac Léti (Adventure of Fergus son of Léti).[7] The text contains an episode in which Fergus mac Léti, King of Ulster, falls asleep on the beach and wakes to find himself being dragged into the sea by three lchorpáin. He captures his abductors, who grant him three wishes in exchange for release.[8][9]
The leprechaun is said to be a solitary creature, whose principal occupation is making and mending shoes, and who enjoys practical jokes.
Note folklore. The tale was spun intentionally as folklore. Can you make the same case for any of the 66 books?
Wiki writes:
In monotheistic thought, God is conceived of as the supreme being, creator deity, and principal object of faith.[3] The conceptions of God, as described by theologians, commonly include the attributes of omniscience (all-knowing), omnipotence (all-powerful), omnipresence (all-present), and as having an eternal and necessary existence.
To me, the difference is that humans ...though disagreeing...take God seriously...or at least some do. Nobody takes Leprechauns seriously! We all know we are reading folklore. You guys are trying now to convince the believers that they too are reading folklore.
I suppose that one can look at it the way one wants. Nobody that I know who is a believer would ever want God to be folklore. Most unbelievers simply assume that He is, I suppose. All I know is that if I pray right now, I do not believe that I am praying to a figment of my imagination. It seems to me that through these arguments, I sense that I am being asked to let go of the spark of hope that philosophers describe as
"springing eternal.". Do you really have an equivalent hope in human survival and science to ensure the survival of our species??

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by ringo, posted 02-24-2019 3:50 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 374 by ringo, posted 02-24-2019 4:32 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 375 by dwise1, posted 02-26-2019 1:48 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 376 of 868 (849146)
02-26-2019 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 375 by dwise1
02-26-2019 1:48 AM


Re: The apologists defense of the literalist faith
I think I understand your points. The fundamentalist would basically assert that the whole concept of science originates with the "ye shall be as gods" dogma. They would argue that basically, humans have this inborn rebellious desire to understand all of reality without having to bow to a God to tell us about it. We by nature want to figure it out for ourselves.
dwise1 writes:
My follow-up question for him was why every single creationist claim was so unconvincing, to which he replied that the only reason I found them so unconvincing was that I was not yet convinced myself. Whoa! That revealed to me that truth has absolutely nothing to do with creationism (despite their purported worship of a god who is Truth Incarnate), but rather sounding convincing is their only touchstone.
I think that whenever we believers, myself, GDR,ICANT etc...get into science, we try and use the science to convince ourselves that our beliefs are valid.(measurable,provable) but I can really only speak for myself.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 375 by dwise1, posted 02-26-2019 1:48 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 379 by dwise1, posted 02-27-2019 7:56 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 378 of 868 (849153)
02-26-2019 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 377 by RAZD
02-26-2019 8:35 AM


Re: facts and reality unconvincing to fundamentalists
I appreciate your input! I know it took a lot to write that long and detailed post. I appreciate you.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 377 by RAZD, posted 02-26-2019 8:35 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 380 of 868 (849218)
02-28-2019 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 379 by dwise1
02-27-2019 7:56 PM


Re: The apologists defense of the literalist faith
A mature believer would realize that his understanding of God is guaranteed to be wrong.
OK I read your whole post and contemplated it. It is food for thought.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 379 by dwise1, posted 02-27-2019 7:56 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 381 by dwise1, posted 02-28-2019 3:12 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 382 of 868 (849231)
02-28-2019 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 379 by dwise1
02-27-2019 7:56 PM


Re: The apologists defense of the literalist faith
I see that you are still hopped up on that "Der Ewige Jude"-like propaganda movie, "God is not Dead". What is it about that movie's vicious lies that you love so much?
Apart from the stereotypical "angry atheist" meme, I don't see that much in the way of lies. Enlighten me.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 379 by dwise1, posted 02-27-2019 7:56 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 383 by dwise1, posted 02-28-2019 11:52 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 384 of 868 (849237)
03-01-2019 2:55 AM
Reply to: Message 383 by dwise1
02-28-2019 11:52 PM


Re: The apologists defense of the literalist faith
OK, so show us that those stereotypical lies in that film are true. Show us that atheists are only acting out from anger. Show us that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And show us that you are not just a fucking liar.
Why do you sound so angry?
I noted the stereotypes. And no they are not true. I guess that makes some people angry. I never really noticed since the characters seemed acceptable though typecast. I'm not trying to defend the movie, apart from the basic arguments which I thought were not lies. Maybe I've led a sheltered life.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by dwise1, posted 02-28-2019 11:52 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 385 by dwise1, posted 03-01-2019 7:32 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 387 of 868 (849243)
03-01-2019 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 386 by Theodoric
03-01-2019 8:26 AM


Re: The apologists defense of the literalist faith
dwise1 writes:
but that is just yet another case of believers inventing their own personal god as an invisible friend who agrees with them and "coincidentally" also hates everybody that they personally hate).
I think that believers warm up to the idea of a perfect human who totally does his Fathers will, saves the galaxy, rescues people, and tells us that we too can be like Him eventually.
Theodoric writes:
Phat does not see it but he is no different than all the other fundies.
Not only are fundies math challenged, but evidently their beliefs strip away self-awareness.
I am quite proficient at math. I also am not a creationist and I hesitate to label myself a fundie. I DO believe in magic, however. My Achilles heel is that I prefer fantasy over reality. God is the one adult belief that hints at magic as a possibility.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 386 by Theodoric, posted 03-01-2019 8:26 AM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 388 by Tangle, posted 03-01-2019 5:04 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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