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Author Topic:   Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2288 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 129 of 716 (704116)
08-04-2013 2:03 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by PaulK
08-03-2013 5:42 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
Obviously you didn't understand that, or you wouldn't have responded as you did. If Christianity is false (and you really need to address the issues there rather than just saying that you personally don't care if you want to argue) then it follows that Jesus isn't God.
Bs'd
Of course JC isn't God. There is only one God who IS one, and that is Y-H-W-H:
Who is the God of Israel? The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?
Christianity is very confused about this. A confusion also caused by bad Bible translations. In almost all translations the four lettered name of God, Y-H-W-H, which appears in the Hebrew Bible almost 7000 times, is not mentioned, but replaced by "the LORD".
But here are some Biblical texts which point out WHO is the God of Israel. In these verses the letters of the name of God are written, like in the original Hebrew.
Exodus 29:46 They will know that I am Y-H-W-H their God, who brought them out of Egypt so that I might dwell among them. I am Y-H-W-H their God.
Numbers 15:41 I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt to be your God. I am Y-H-W-H your God.
Deuteronomy 10:20-21 Fear Y-H-W-H your God and serve him. Hold fast to him and take your oaths in his name. He is your praise; he is your God, who performed for you those great and awesome wonders you saw with your own eyes.
Joshua 24:18 We too will serve Y-H-W-H , because he is our God.
II Samuel 22:32 For who is God besides Y-H-W-H ?
I Chronicles 16:14 He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth
II Chronicles 13:10 As for us, Y-H-W-H is our God, and we have not forsaken him
Psalm 31:14 But I trust in you, O Y-H-W-H; I say, "You are my God.
Psalm 89:6 For who in the skies above can compare with Y-H-W-H? Who is like Y-H-W-H among the heavenly beings?
Psalm 91:2 I will say of Y-H-W-H , "He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.
Psalm 100:3 Know that Y-H-W-H is God. It is he who made us.
Psalm 105:7 He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth;
Psalm 118:27 Y-H-W-H is God, and he has made his light shine upon us.
Psalm 140:6 O Y-H-W-H, I say to you, "You are my God
Isaiah 25:1 O Y-H-W-H, you are my God.
Isaiah 41:13 For I am Y-H-W-H , your God;
Isaiah 43:3 For I am Y-H-W-H , your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
Isaiah 51:15 For I am Y-H-W-H your God, who churns up the sea so that its waves roar- Y-H-W-H Almighty is his name
Jeremiah 3:22-23 Yes, we will come to you, for you are Y-H-W-H our God
Jeremiah 10:10 But Y-H-W-H is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King.;
Jeremiah 31:18 Restore me, and I will return, because you are Y-H-W-H my God.
Habakkuk 1:12 O Y-H-W-H, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die.
.
.
And is there, except for this God Y-H-W-H, any other god?
.
.
Deuteronomy 4:35 You were shown these things so that you might know that Y-H-W-H is God; besides him there is no other.
Deuteronomy 4:39 Acknowledge and take to heart this day that Y-H-W-H is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.
II Samuel 7:22 How great you are, O Sovereign Y-H-W-H! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.
I Kings 8:60 so that all the peoples of the earth may know that Y-H-W-H is God and that there is no other.
I Chronicles 17:20 There is no one like you, O Y-H-W-H, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.
II Chronicles 6:14 O Y-H-W-H, God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven or on earth.
Nehemiah 9:6 You alone are Y-H-W-H.
Isaiah 45:21-23 You are my witnesses," declares Y-H-W-H, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."
Isaiah 44:6 This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
Isaiah 45:5-6 I am Y-H-W-H , and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me."
Isaiah 45:21-23 Declare what is to be, present it- let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, Y-H-W-H? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.
Joel 2:27 Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;
Exodus 20:1-3 And God spoke all these words: "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.
.
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In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
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.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by PaulK, posted 08-03-2013 5:42 PM PaulK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by kofh2u, posted 08-05-2013 2:13 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2288 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 131 of 716 (704145)
08-05-2013 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by kofh2u
08-05-2013 2:13 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
Bs'd
JC didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies, so he was NOT the messiah.
JC didn't fulfill his own prophecies to come back within one generation with pomp and power, to judge the world, so he was a false prophet.
Enough said.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by kofh2u, posted 08-05-2013 2:13 AM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by kofh2u, posted 08-06-2013 8:22 PM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2288 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 133 of 716 (704220)
08-06-2013 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by ramoss
08-05-2013 9:51 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
Bs'd
The term son of God is used for people or angels who are especially beloved or favored by God, as we can see in Genesis 6:4, Job 1:6, 2:1, 38:7, and Psalm 82:6, 89:6, and many other verses.
.
.
In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by ramoss, posted 08-05-2013 9:51 AM ramoss has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2288 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 136 of 716 (709041)
10-19-2013 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by kofh2u
08-06-2013 8:22 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
Of course JC came back as he said and reigned over the church for 1000 years.
Bs'd
The problem with that is, that there is no way to check that claim.
You might as well claim that Mohammed reigned over the church for 1000 years.
Or David Koresh.
Or little green men.
Fact of the matter is of course, that JC did NOT come back in one generation with pomp and power to judge the whole world.
So he failed his own prophecy.
So he was a false prophet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by kofh2u, posted 08-06-2013 8:22 PM kofh2u has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by jaywill, posted 10-21-2013 9:10 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2288 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 139 of 716 (709520)
10-28-2013 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by jaywill
10-21-2013 9:10 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
On the way to the good land some rebels rose up and accused Moses of having failed to bring them into the Promised Land. They could not endure that God was still outworking the process of fulfilling His promise.
What's the difference between you and say the 200 men of renown who followed Korah ? They accused Moses of having failed and you accuse the Messiah of having failed.
What's the difference ?
You should be instead thankful that He allows you more time to be saved from your sins so as to not come under eternal judgment.
Bs'd
Still the fact remains: JC didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies, and he didn't even fulfill his own prophecies to come back within one generation with pomp and power to judge the whole world.
So he was not the messiah, but a false prophet.
The facts are clear.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by jaywill, posted 10-21-2013 9:10 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by jaywill, posted 10-28-2013 8:35 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2288 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 141 of 716 (710496)
11-05-2013 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by jaywill
10-28-2013 8:35 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
Where do you see Christ promise to "come back" within one generation ?
Bs'd
Here it is:
Let us take a look at the prophetic qualities of Jesus.
In Matthew 4:17 he claims that the kingdom of heaven is at hand..
Now, almost 2000 years later, the kingdom is still not here.
This claim of Jesus to return soon in order to judge the whole world is all over the New Testament. Look for instance in Revelations 1:1-3, idem 3:11, idem 22:6, 10-12, 20. Everywhere here is spoken about a soon return and the early Christian communities were expecting the return of Christ in their lifetimes, as we can read in I Corinthians 7:29, Romans 13:11-12, and I Peter 4:7. Their belief in a return of Christ in their lifetimes was based upon very clear, not to be misunderstood statements of Jesus. Look for an impressive prophesy in Mark 13:24-30: "The sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light. And the stars of heaven will fall and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then he shall send his angels and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven .. Verily I say to you, that this generation shall not pass till all these things be done." See also Matthew 24:29-35 and Luke 21;25-33. .
This generation passed away almost 2000 years ago, and no one has seen him coming back on the clouds to establish his kingdom of peace and gather in his elected Christians.
In Matthew 16:27-28 Jesus says: "For the son of man shall come in the glory of his father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, there be some standing here which shall not taste of death till they see the son of man coming in his kingdom." See also Mark 9:1
Did anybody see him coming in his kingdom? Is every man already rewarded according to his works?... But some of them would not die until they would have seen him coming in his kingdom!...Are they still around today?....Even Methuselah didn't live that long!
From this we must conclude that Jesus has a very poor resume as a prophet. What does the Holy Torah that the only eternal G.d gave to the Jewish people say about this?
Deuteronomy 18:20-22: "But the prophet which shall presume to speak a word in my name which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if you say in your heart; how shall we know the word that the LORD has not spoken? When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing follows not, nor come to pass, this is the thing that the LORD has not spoken, but the prophet has spoken it presumptuously, you shall not be afraid of him."
Here G.d commands the Jewish people to execute false prophets, who are prophets whose prophecies do not come true. Jesus is a perfect example of a prophet whose prophecy did not come true. See also the prophecy concerning the three days and three nights that did not come true.
And what about the miracles that he is supposed to have done?
Jesus placed himself in the place of G.d (John 10:30, 14:9), and he demanded to be worshipped like Him (John 5:23), and people did worship him (Matthew 2:11, 8:2, 14:33, John 9:38*).
So if he really performed these miracles, then applies to him the law of G.d that says: "If there arise among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or wonder, and the sign or wonder comes to pass whereof he spake onto thee, saying: Let us go after other gods which thou has not known, and let us serve them; Thou shall not hearken to the words of that prophet or dreamer of dreams, for the LORD (Y-H-W-H) your G.d proveth you, whether you love the LORD thy G.d with all your heart and all your soul. You shall walk after the LORD your G.d and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice, and you shall serve Him and cleave to Him. And that prophet or dreamer of dreams shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your G.d which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy G.d commanded thee to walk in. So shall thou put the evil away from the midst of thee." Deuteronomy 13:1-5.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by jaywill, posted 10-28-2013 8:35 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by jaywill, posted 11-06-2013 12:44 AM Eliyahu has not replied
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 Message 151 by jaywill, posted 11-07-2013 4:52 PM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2288 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 154 of 716 (717599)
01-29-2014 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Phat
08-02-2013 5:56 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
aside from telling and retelling other people that there is no God besides Y-H-W-H, what is it that you believe your G-d is telling you to do with the life He gave you?
Bs'd
Apart from being a light unto the nations, my job is to study Torah: "Moses summoned all Israel and said: Hear, Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them."
Deut 5:1

.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Phat, posted 08-02-2013 5:56 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2288 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 155 of 716 (717600)
01-29-2014 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by jaywill
11-07-2013 4:35 PM


The words are clear. It was supposed to be within the generation of those listening. And it was pretty clear that those listening thought so too.
Didn't happen.
Bs'd
In this one there is no wriggle room at all:
In Matthew 16:27-28 Jesus says: "For the son of man shall come in the glory of his father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, there be some standing here which shall not taste of death till they see the son of man coming in his kingdom." See also Mark 9:1
Did anybody see him coming in his kingdom? Is every man already rewarded according to his works? But some of them would not die until they would have seen him coming in his kingdom! Are they still around today? Even Methuselah didn't live that long!
From this we must conclude that Jesus has a very poor resume as a prophet. What does the Holy Torah that the only eternal G.d gave to the Jewish people say about this?
Deuteronomy 18:20-22:
"But the prophet which shall presume to speak a word in my name which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if you say in your heart; how shall we know the word that Y-H-W-H has not spoken? When a prophet speaks in the name of Y-H-W-H, if the thing follows not, nor come to pass, this is the thing that Y-H-W-H has not spoken, but the prophet has spoken it presumptuously, you shall not be afraid of him."
Here G.d commands the Jewish people to execute false prophets, who are prophets whose prophecies do not come true. Jesus is a perfect example of a prophet whose prophecy did not come true. See also the prophecy concerning the three days and three nights that did not come true.

.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by jaywill, posted 11-07-2013 4:35 PM jaywill has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by GDR, posted 01-29-2014 1:38 PM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2288 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 157 of 716 (717650)
01-30-2014 2:02 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by GDR
01-29-2014 1:38 PM


Well in part yes. Firstly the "Son of Man" reference goes to Daniel 7 where the "Son of Man" is being presented to the Ancient of Days. That coming is a heavenly vision and not an earthly one. However, it goes on to say that the "Son of Man" will be given dominion over an everlasting Kingdom that will be established in an earthly setting and extend beyond time to eternity. Christ's Kingdom or His church now exists throughout the world, and was established in the life times of those Jesus was speaking to.
AbE I just thought I'd add that I realize this is not going to convince you of anything but I do want to give you the Christian POV.
Bs'd
Well, the question is MUCH better than the answer.
And of course, when JC speaks about the "son of man" he is of course speaking about himself, as we can see in for instance Mat 8,20, Mat 9,6, Mat 10,23, Mat 11,19, Mat 12,8, Mat 12,32, Mat 12,40, Mat 13,37, Mat 13,41, Mat 17,9, Mat 17,12, Mat 17,22, Mat 18,11, Mat 19,28, Mat 20,18, Mat 20,28, and others.
So the fact remains that JC was a false prophet.
No way around it.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by GDR, posted 01-29-2014 1:38 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by GDR, posted 01-30-2014 2:18 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2288 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 159 of 716 (717828)
02-01-2014 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by GDR
01-30-2014 2:18 AM


Not at all. They were looking for a warrior king
Bs'd
The reason they were looking for a warrior king, is because the Hebrew prophets say the messiah is going to be a warrior king.
but Jesus' point that the enemy was evil itself and that the weapon to be used against evil is love.
If he really was the messiah, then he should have fulfilled the messianic prophecies, and not come with love and brotherhood stories.
They were looking for a messiah to rebuild the Temple but Jesus said that the Temple was being rebuilt in Him and in the hearts of His followers.
And we all know, no Temple is being built in any hearts, so also in that aspect he failed to fulfill the messianic prophecies.
In other words He fulfilled the prophesies but not in the way that they had expected.
The messianic prophecies also say that the messiah must make an end to war, and save the Jews from the oppression of their enemies, JC failed on all accounts.
Bringing some vague stories about Temples in hearts, love and understanding, is in no way fulfilling the messianic prophecies.
Talking is cheap. Fulfilling the messianic prophecies is a whole different ball game.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by GDR, posted 01-30-2014 2:18 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by GDR, posted 02-02-2014 11:57 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2288 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 161 of 716 (717870)
02-02-2014 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by GDR
02-02-2014 11:57 AM


Ok. We now have nearly 2000 years of recorded history.
Bs'd
Closer to 6000.
In that time the "Kingdom of God" as announced by Jesus has been spread word wide and even though it has had a very spotty record it has also led in huge advances in civilization.
The Kingdom of Allah is also being spread, and is soon to overtake the kingdom of JC.
Your version has still not seen a messiah.
You think that's a problem?
I don't have to tell you about what has happened to the Temple and Israel exists because of the politics of gentile countries
Israel doesn't exist because of the politics of the Gentile countries, but despite of it.
and is a secular state.
Within 20 years the religious will have the majority, and then we'll see miracles happening.
Just what of the prophesies as you understand them has been fulfilled?
"Fear not, for I am with thee, I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west. I will say to the north; give up, and to the south; keep not back: Bring my sons from far, and My daughters from the ends of the earth." Isaiah 43:5+6 The whole world witnesses this miracle, how after almost 2000 years of dispersion over the whole earth the Jews are returning to Israel. In just 50 years a state has been built from scratch, the Hebrew language has been revived. Is there any precedent in history for this? Is there any other people that was dispersed throughout the whole world for almost 2000 years that held on to their identity and their religion?---Surely we see here the hand of G.d.
I don't mean this to sound confrontational. Essentially I see Christianity as largely Jewish.
However, Christianity is largely pagan.
I realize that Jesus knew that what He was doing was going to be divisive, (mind you there already were many divisions within the ranks of the Jews of that day ), but I don't think that He would have imagined that there would be a separate church. Jesus was a Jew in a Jewish culture. He lived His life in that culture, and of all of His initial followers were Jewish. We're all brothers who have a bit of a disagreement over our historical roots. It does all boil down to what we believe about the resurrection.
It boils down to what we believe about serving God.
The Jews serve God by fulfilling His commandments and upkeeping His law.
The Christians think they are serving God while they threw overboard all Gods commandments and replaced them with paganism.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by GDR, posted 02-02-2014 11:57 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by GDR, posted 02-03-2014 3:54 PM Eliyahu has not replied
 Message 163 by Faith, posted 02-03-2014 9:46 PM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2288 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 164 of 716 (720066)
02-20-2014 2:03 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by Faith
02-03-2014 9:46 PM


Well, the Jews of the NT even confessed that there was no way anyone had ever fulfilled the Law perfectly, and Paul taught that the whole point of the Law was to show us our inability to obey it
Bs'd
So Paul said that it is impossilble to obey the law.
However, God put on obeying the law the most beautifull blessings, and on disobeying He put the most horrific curses. (for the finer details look HERE )
So what would be the use of that, if people cannot fulfill the law? Then God would simply have cursed the Jews by giving them a law which they cannot obey, and on which disobedience follow terrible curses.
And of course, there are examples of people who did follow Gods commandments: "I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give to your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall bless themselves: 5 because Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Gen 26
And God Himself clearly says that obeying the law is no problem:
For this commandment which I command you this day is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us, and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ But the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
See, I have set before you this day life and good, death and evil. If you obey the commandments of Y-H-W-H your God which I command you this day, by loving Y-H-W-H your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his ordinances, then you shall live and multiply, and Y-H-W-H your God will bless you in the land which you are entering to take possession of it. But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them, I declare to you this day, that you shall perish; you shall not live long in the land which you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess. I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live, loving Y-H-W-H your God, obeying his voice, and cleaving to him; for that means life to you and length of days, that you may dwell in the land which Y-H-W-H swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
Deut 30
God says: "CHOOSE LIFE!", choose the law.
According to Paul and the Christians there is no choice.
So who should we believe, Y-H-W-H or Paul?
so that we might be drawn to Christ, the only human being who ever did obey it perfectly
Actually, he did not. For the finer details look HERE
The law stands for ever. That is what God said:
"Celebrate the Festival of Unleavened Bread, because it was on this very day that I brought your divisions out of Egypt. Celebrate this day as a lasting ordinance for the generations to come." Ex 12:17
"In the tent of meeting, outside the curtain that shields the ark of the covenant law, Aaron and his sons are to keep the lamps burning before the LORD from evening till morning. This is to be a lasting ordinance among the Israelites for the generations to come." Ex 27:21
"‘This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, wherever you live: You must not eat any fat or any blood.’
Leviticus 3:17
"You must not eat any bread, or roasted or new grain, until the very day you bring this offering to your God. This is to be a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, wherever you live." .Leviticus 23:14
‘Now if you as a community unintentionally fail to keep any of these commands the Lord gave Moses 23 any of the Lord’s commands to you through him, from the day the Lord gave them and continuing through the generations to come" Numbers 15:23
There is much, much more like this, saying the law stands forever, for all generations.
There is no such a thing as: "The messiah will come and abolish the law". It just doesn't exist.
And, of course, JC himself also said the exact opposite of what the Christians say:
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
Matt 5
So also JC agrees: The law stands forever.
It is only Paul who comes up with the idea that the law is abolished, but who is Paul that he thinks he can abolish the law??
But alas, you've managed to erase the messianic meanings of all the OT scriptures that prophesied that the Messiah would be God incarnate.
There is not a single text in the Tanach that says that the messiah will be God incarnate.
Just doesn't exist.
If you think different, please post 'm here.
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"Those who believe that the geological record is in any degree perfect, will undoubtedly at once reject my theory."

Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Faith, posted 02-03-2014 9:46 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Faith, posted 07-19-2016 8:54 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2288 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 165 of 716 (787608)
07-19-2016 6:57 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Faith
07-26-2013 6:26 PM


Re: Daniel 9
Bs"d
I think that by now it is quite clear that JC did NOT fulfill the messianic prophecies, so it should also be quite clear that he was NOT the messiah.
It really is that simple.
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In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
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"According to scientific rules, in order for critics to disprove the Torah codes, they would have to find fatal flaws in each of the six papers presenting a different approach and a different code. This happened five years ago, and to date not a single flaw was found in any of these papers. Therefore, for all intent and purposes, the Torah codes have been scientifically proven, and the debate is over."
Harold Gans, mathematician and professional code breaker

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Faith, posted 07-26-2013 6:26 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by GDR, posted 07-20-2016 3:54 PM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2288 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 716 of 716 (827166)
01-19-2018 7:13 AM
Reply to: Message 712 by Davidjay
05-12-2017 9:27 AM


Re: Which Messianic Prophecy did not Jesus fulfill
The challenge is put forward by myself for one, which of the Messianic Prophecies did not Jesus fulfill ?
Bs"d
Here are some:
Micha 5:2-9; "But thou Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for NOW shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders. And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men. And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off."
Here we have very clearly physical redemption from earthly enemies: "And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword", "Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off." These are very clear verses that can not be misinterpreted; when the messiah comes the Jewish enemies are going to be slaughtered. And the one coming forth from Bethlehem is to be a ruler in Israel, that is a king, or maybe nowadays a president, but not a wandering preacher and miracle healer.
Zacheriah 9:9-10; "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth."
They say that he did ride on a donkey, like the whole Middle East in those days, but that is where it stops. He did not bring any peace, the battle bow, the horses and the chariots, symbols of war, were not cut off from Jerusalem, and his dominion was not from sea to sea and to the ends of the earth; as a matter of fact, he did not have any dominion at all.
In order to get around this problem, the Christian church invented the "second coming". However, nowhere in the Hebrew scriptures is it written that the messiah would come once, get himself killed, and come again in a second coming. This is a pure rationalization of Jesus' failure to function in any way as a messiah. Nowhere in any of the above prophecies does it indicate that there will be a gap of at least 2000 years between the birth of the messiah and the redemption. Nowhere does it speak about a messiah being tortured to death and coming back thousands of years later.
Jeremiah 23:5-6; "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."
Jeremiah 33:14-16: "IN THOSE DAYS AND AT THAT TIME, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. IN THOSE DAYS shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness."
When the branch of righteousness springs forth to David, when the messiah comes, THEN, IN THOSE DAYS, Judah will be saved and Jerusalem shall dwell safely. That means that it is impossible to squeeze in two thousand or more years between the coming of the messiah and the redemption of Judah and Jerusalem. Out goes the 'second coming'. However, there wasn't any redemption in the days of Jesus. Forty years after his death, in 70 CE, Jerusalem was totally destroyed by the Romans, the second Temple was burned down, and the Jews exiled. No way that the above prophecy was fulfilled.
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Isaiah 11; "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."
Also here we have a messiah who is going to kill the evil people: "And he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked." And after that we get the better world, when it says: "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them etc." This is what is supposed to happen, as soon as there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse (the father of King David) and a Branch shall grow out of his roots; that is as soon as the messiah comes. Nowhere here is mentioned that the messiah will be killed and that these prophecies will happen at least 2000 years later. On the contrary; when the messiah comes redemption comes. And also for this messianic prophecy you don't have to be a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist in order to see that it is not fulfilled. Nothing of this all was done by Jesus. Conclusion: He was not the messiah.

"According to scientific rules, in order for critics to disprove the Torah codes, they would have to find fatal flaws in each of the six papers presenting a different approach and a different code. This happened five years ago, and to date not a single flaw was found in any of these papers. Therefore, for all intent and purposes, the Torah codes have been scientifically proven, and the debate is over."
Harold Gans, mathematician and professional code breaker

This message is a reply to:
 Message 712 by Davidjay, posted 05-12-2017 9:27 AM Davidjay has not replied

  
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