Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 91 (8855 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 08-16-2018 11:44 AM
179 online now:
Faith, frako, jar, kjsimons, ringo, Tangle, Tanypteryx (7 members, 172 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: rldawnca
Post Volume:
Total: 836,959 Year: 11,782/29,783 Month: 804/1,642 Week: 218/460 Day: 17/40 Hour: 11/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
1314151617
18
Author Topic:   Senator Al Franken?
Percy
Member
Posts: 17571
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 256 of 270 (826185)
12-24-2017 8:28 AM


For those who doubt the women's stories, a series of audio items in today's New York Times describes the process women endure to report sexual harassment and what happens to them: What Happens When You Report Sexual Harassment?. Here I summarize some of the information:

  • HR departments are often not supportive of women reporting sexual harassment.

  • Reporting sexual harassment often affects the woman's job, including firing.

  • Superstar performers are often strongly defended by their companies against charges of sexual harassment, including campaigns of lies depicting the woman as promiscuous, in debt, disgruntled, unreliable, unstable, etc.

  • Settlements often include provisions disallowing discussing the issue.

  • Even when the harasser resigns or is fired, he can later lie about what really happened.

  • Colleagues may not be supportive of a harassed woman's complaint, even other women.

Reporting sexual harassment has lots of downsides and very little upside. Woman report sexual harassment in the hope that it will make it go away. That's not what usually happens. What usually happens is a chain of negative consequences for the women.

Sidenote: Since most sexual harassment occurs in the workplace, I'd like to provide my impressions of HR departments. HR is not a reliable ally for employees with sexual harassment issues. In fact, HR is often not a reliable ally for any low level employee on any issue. Their primary job responsibility is to propagate corporate policy down, not solve employee problems. Is your birthdate improperly recorded in the corporate database? They can help you, and with all kinds of things of that nature. Anything else? Forget it. I've experienced HR from both the management and individual contributor roles. As a manager, they made things happen regarding those reporting to me. As an individual contributor? Zilch.

HR is composed of people just like you and me, and they're as baffled and nervous and full of trepidation concerning how to deal with harassment situations as we would be, despite the training they receive. Women should be very wary of reporting sexual harassment to HR. HR departments report to upper management, the head of HR is usually a VP who reports to the CEO, it isn't unusual for harassment claims to go straight to the top, and the response is usually to seek how to most quietly and inexpensively make the problem go away. That usually means sacrificing the person with the least power, the woman.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by NoNukes, posted 12-26-2017 1:40 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 260 by Rrhain, posted 12-26-2017 5:59 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10863
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 257 of 270 (826229)
12-26-2017 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by Percy
12-24-2017 8:28 AM


HR is composed of people just like you and me, and they're as baffled and nervous and full of trepidation concerning how to deal with harassment situations as we would be, despite the training they receive. Women should be very wary of reporting sexual harassment to HR.

HR employees have no duty of confidentiality to a complaining employer that is stronger than their first duty to the company. Any woman or man would be well advised to talk to her attorney prior to any consultation with HR on a serious offense involving a senior employee. Of course, that kind of consultation adds an extra level of expense which may never be recouped; it is yet another barrier to even daring to report.

If you have a legal grievance against a senior person at a company, you can expect your reviews will start featuring negative observations. You can expect that a paper trail will be started and that behaviors that are routinely tolerated by the company will become issues for you. You won't be selected for special projects that will enhance the careers of the folks who succeed in those assignments.

In short, folks who report sexual harassment to HR should be prepared to leave their place of employment. It is small wonder that folks often file these things on the way out the door, or after they have left.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Percy, posted 12-24-2017 8:28 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 258 of 270 (826236)
12-26-2017 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by NoNukes
12-21-2017 9:21 PM


Re: Why no ethics committee hearing for Franken
NoNukes responds to me:

quote:
quote:
Really? Because I have yet to hear a "yes" or a "no."
Which means you haven't answered the question.

No, that's not what it means.

Well, yes, it does. It shows that you are uncomfortable answering it. Here is what you wrote (why does nobody seem to remember that we can all look back and see what you wrote?) Message 212

This hypothetical and your view of what happened to you does not match any fact pattern for any of the relevant cases. All of the women involved in the public cases under discussion say that it happened and that it was a big deal. With regards to the cases involving minors, I don't care whether the women are okay with it or not.

In addition, Franken appears to be involved in a series of similar incidents rather than a single incident that can be explained away as you do your own incident.

Since only you and one other woman is involved, and that woman is not trying to hold a position of responsibility in government, I'm satisfied with whatever handling of the incident you did. Similarly, I don't expect to see Al Franken, or Conyers, or Moore arrested. But I don't want those folks in Congress.

Your mileage may vary.

There's no answer there. Instead, you try to fob it off on me. But let's actually analyze what you said.

"This hypothetical."

What just a fucking minute. What happened to me was "hypothetical"? Or was what happened to Tweeden "hypothetical"? I was willing to let it go the first time, but you've decided to pretend that you've got some sort of moral high ground here so all pretense of civility has just been tossed.

"does not match any fact pattern for any of the relevant cases."

Except it does. It is pretty much identical to what happened to Tweeden: In a scripted performance that includes a kiss, someone stuck their tongue in the mouth of the other without permission.

You've avoided and evaded, hiding behind a claim that you need to hear whether or not I was OK with it afterward, refusing to explain why.

And thus, your behaviour is dishonest. You have called my experience "hypothetical," denied the reality of the precision with which my experience matches that of Tweeden's, and run away from any attempt to have you define your reasoning.

I wouldn't say we don't have anything to discuss. More accurately, you don't want to discuss it.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by NoNukes, posted 12-21-2017 9:21 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 259 of 270 (826238)
12-26-2017 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by NoNukes
12-22-2017 4:36 PM


Re: Lefties on the bullseye?
NoNukes responds to me:

quote:
Do you have any facts to add?

Do you have any defense of your argument? Do you even have an argument?

quote:
Do you believe it was an accident?

Franken does. Do we believe him? Does believing him necessarily mean that we don't believe the women?

Can't they both be right?

I'm in the identical situation to what happened to Franken, both in what happened to me and what I have done (neither of which were "hypothetical") and given that you can't seem to put forward an argument, your intellectual dishonesty is reaching epic levels.

My conclusion is that you're running away.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by NoNukes, posted 12-22-2017 4:36 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 260 of 270 (826239)
12-26-2017 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by Percy
12-24-2017 8:28 AM


Percy writes:

quote:
For those who doubt the women's stories

Name one.

Name one person in this thread that "doubts the women's stories," Percy.

Does the term "strawman" mean anything to you?


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Percy, posted 12-24-2017 8:28 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3659
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 261 of 270 (826801)
01-10-2018 12:02 AM


A couple of ancient history links, plus something newer
Two from back in November:

Al Franken's Former Female Staffers Come to His Defense: 'He Treated Us With the Utmost Respect'

36 Women From Saturday Night Live Sign Letter of Support for Sen. Al Franken

And from Jan. 7, 2018:

Major Democratic donor threatens to pull funding from senators who called for Franken’s resignation

quote:
Sen. Al Franken has resigned from the Senate amid allegations of sexual harassment — and calls from his colleagues for him to step down. Now, a major Democratic donor is saying those senators may have to pay a price for pressuring him to resign.

Susie Tompkins Buell, a liberal mega donor who primarily supports female politicians, said in interviews with Buzzfeed and the New York Times that she is reconsidering her financial support of politicians who called for Franken’s resignation, a move that she considered to be “unfair,” “cavalier” and a “stampede.”

“For me this is dangerous and wrong,” Buell told the New York Times, saying that the senators “moved too fast” in condemning Franken.


More at source.

Moose


Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Taq, posted 01-10-2018 2:46 PM Minnemooseus has not yet responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7518
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.4


(2)
Message 262 of 270 (826812)
01-10-2018 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by Minnemooseus
01-10-2018 12:02 AM


Re: A couple of ancient history links, plus something newer
Minnemooseus writes:

Two from back in November:
Al Franken's Former Female Staffers Come to His Defense: 'He Treated Us With the Utmost Respect'

36 Women From Saturday Night Live Sign Letter of Support for Sen. Al Franken

Not abusing all women does not excuse him from abusing some women. At the same time, there is a difference between an unapologetic misogynist and a dude that made a couple of serious errors in judgment.

Franken should have gotten out ahead of this whole thing, made a serious apology, and even perhaps let the Senate ethics committee grill him in public so he could explain himself. Americans have always been willing to let people redeem themselves if they show heartfelt regret. What Americans will not accept is someone who abuses their power on a regular basis to support a ongoing corrupt system, and I don't see Franken being a part of something like that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Minnemooseus, posted 01-10-2018 12:02 AM Minnemooseus has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-10-2018 7:47 PM Taq has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17571
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 263 of 270 (826823)
01-10-2018 6:45 PM


Catherine Deneuve Speaks Out
From today's New York Times: Catherine Deneuve and Others Denounce the #MeToo Movement. The public letter says in part:

Damn, it's in French: Nous défendons une liberté d’importuner, indispensable à la liberté sexuelle. Looking for the English translation. I want to quote from the whole letter, not just from the excerpts in the NYT article...

Tried Google Translate, but it's too rough, still looking...

Okay, here we go, found it at WorldCrunch: Full Translation Of French Anti-#MeToo Manifesto Signed By Catherine Deneuve. I use the New York Times excerpts where possible:

quote:
Rape is a crime. But insistent or clumsy flirting is not a crime, nor is gallantry a chauvinist aggression.
...
Just like in the good old witch-hunt days, what we are once again witnessing here is puritanism in the name of a so-called greater good, claiming to promote the liberation and protection of women, only to enslave them to a status of eternal victim and reduce them to defenseless preys of male chauvinist demons.

In fact, #MeToo has led to a campaign, in the press and on social media, of public accusations and indictments against individuals who, without being given a chance to respond or defend themselves, are put in the exact same category as sex offenders. This summary justice already has its victims, men prevented from practicing their profession as punishment, forced to resign, etc., while the only thing they did wrong was touching a knee, trying to steal a kiss, or speaking about ‘intimate’ things at a work dinner, or sending messages with sexual connotations to a woman whose feelings were not mutual.
...
Already, editors are asking some of us to make our masculine characters less "sexist" and more restrained in how they talk about sexuality and love, or to make it so that the "traumas experienced by female characters" be more evident! Bordering on ridiculous, in Sweden a bill was presented that calls for explicit consent before any sexual relations! Next we’ll have a smartphone app that adults who want to sleep together will have to use to check precisely which sex acts the other does or does not accept.
...
Above all, we are aware that the human being is not a monolith: A woman can, in the same day, lead a professional team and enjoy being a man’s sexual object, without being a "whore" or a vile accomplice of the patriarchy. She can make sure that her wages are equal to a man’s but not feel forever traumatized by a man who rubs himself against her in the subway, even if that is regarded as an offense. She can even consider this act as the expression of a great sexual deprivation, or even as a non-event.
...
As women, we don’t recognize ourselves in this feminism that, beyond the denunciation of abuses of power, takes the face of a hatred of men and sexuality. We believe that the freedom to say "no" to a sexual proposition cannot exist without the freedom to bother. And we consider that one must know how to respond to this freedom to bother in ways other than by closing ourselves off in the role of the prey.


She says some important things, like that women shouldn't be forced into the role of perpetual victim, and that the interplay between the sexes isn't possible without the freedom to bother. As Garrison Keillor said long before he was fired from Prairie Home Companion, "A world in which there is no sexual harassment at all, is a world in which there will not be any flirtation."

But she also says that woman should tolerate some level of, well, there are no other words for it, sexual harassment. Is a crotch feel (DeNeuve's words: "a man who rubs himself against her in the subway") really to be tolerated?

But I do see strength in the pragmatism of DeNeuve's view, less because I like it and more because, as much as I favor the #MeToo movement, I don't believe human nature will ever change.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by NoNukes, posted 01-10-2018 7:57 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 267 by Diomedes, posted 01-11-2018 3:30 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1690
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 264 of 270 (826824)
01-10-2018 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Taq
01-10-2018 2:46 PM


Re: A couple of ancient history links, plus something newer
What Americans will not accept is someone who abuses their power on a regular basis to support a ongoing corrupt system

Well, except for admitted sexual predator Trump. Separate from the individual women who accused Trump there are the documented occasions when he barged into the dressing rooms at his beauty pageants.

Apparently, somewhere around half of the voting Americans do accept abuse of power and systematic corruption in the Whitehouse.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Taq, posted 01-10-2018 2:46 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Taq, posted 01-11-2018 4:09 PM Tanypteryx has acknowledged this reply

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10863
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 265 of 270 (826825)
01-10-2018 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by Percy
01-10-2018 6:45 PM


Re: Catherine Deneuve Speaks Out
She says some important things, like that women shouldn't be forced into the role of perpetual victim

Yeah, that is a truism, but is it important here? Are there a significant number of "metoo" voices that are doing this? If so are they getting airtime? In my opinion, this "important thing" is just more of the same misguided thought that underlies the rest of DeNeuve's statement.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Percy, posted 01-10-2018 6:45 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by xongsmith, posted 01-11-2018 10:38 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 1850
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009


Message 266 of 270 (826836)
01-11-2018 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by NoNukes
01-10-2018 7:57 PM


Re: Catherine Deneuve Speaks Out
Percy, in Message 263, writes:

She says some important things, like that women shouldn't be forced into the role of perpetual victim...

This is interesting when you consider her role in "Repulsion".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repulsion_(film)

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Fix a link that shouldn't have needed fixing (system couldn't handle a "_").


- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by NoNukes, posted 01-10-2018 7:57 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 695
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


(2)
Message 267 of 270 (826841)
01-11-2018 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by Percy
01-10-2018 6:45 PM


Re: Catherine Deneuve Speaks Out
But she also says that woman should tolerate some level of, well, there are no other words for it, sexual harassment. Is a crotch feel (DeNeuve's words: "a man who rubs himself against her in the subway") really to be tolerated?

But I do see strength in the pragmatism of DeNeuve's view, less because I like it and more because, as much as I favor the #MeToo movement, I don't believe human nature will ever change.

I think what she is alluding to is that Twitter may have turned this legitimate issue into somewhat of a sideshow. Everyone now jumping on the bandwagon and it runs the risk of appearing more like a witch hunt which devalues what I think is a serious problem.

At a core level, I think what #MeToo is striving to do is draw attention to how women have had to be complacent to advances from men in positions of power. There is a fine line between being flirtatious versus being outright aggressive. But ultimately, in my mind, the core issue is the abuse of power. Whether it be in Hollywood or elsewhere, too often have men (and some women) used their elevated status, wealth and gravitas to coerce women into uncomfortable situations. And if they rebuff the advances, they can be blacklisted. Case in point was Mira Sorvino who turned away Weinstein only to be passed over for many roles. Despite being an Oscar winner.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Percy, posted 01-10-2018 6:45 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7518
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 268 of 270 (826843)
01-11-2018 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by Tanypteryx
01-10-2018 7:47 PM


Re: A couple of ancient history links, plus something newer
Tanypteryx writes:

Well, except for admitted sexual predator Trump. Separate from the individual women who accused Trump there are the documented occasions when he barged into the dressing rooms at his beauty pageants.

Apparently, somewhere around half of the voting Americans do accept abuse of power and systematic corruption in the Whitehouse.

I strongly suspect that Trump supporters will claim that these events never happened.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-10-2018 7:47 PM Tanypteryx has acknowledged this reply

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3659
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 269 of 270 (827517)
01-26-2018 9:18 PM


Garrison Keillor - More details from Minnesota Public Radio
Links for the record here:

https://freethoughtblogs.com/.../24/garrison-keillor-exposed

Which links to the lengthy:

https://www.mprnews.org/story/2018/01/23/keillor-workplace

Moose


    
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3659
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 270 of 270 (830519)
04-01-2018 7:04 PM


Rep. Elizabeth Esty pressured to resign following reports...
Rep. Elizabeth Esty pressured to resign following reports of sexual harassment in her office

quote:
Rep. Elizabeth Esty (D-Conn.) is facing growing calls to resign over the role she played in a sexual harassment scandal involving her former chief of staff Tony Baker and former staffer Anna Kain. According to reports first published by the Washington Post and Connecticut Post, Esty reportedly kept Baker on her staff for three months after learning about a May 2016 episode in which Baker left a threatening voicemail for Kain that inspired her to obtain a restraining order.

More at source.

Moose


    
RewPrev1
...
1314151617
18
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2018