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Author Topic:   Should we teach both evolution and religion in school?
creation
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 1023 of 2073 (827257)
01-21-2018 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1017 by Percy
01-19-2018 5:35 PM


Re: Separate school and state and religion
No you have not provided any evidence of what time is like at all actually. You talk of light here. Well, that is irrelevant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1017 by Percy, posted 01-19-2018 5:35 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1034 by Percy, posted 01-22-2018 1:07 PM creation has replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 1024 of 2073 (827258)
01-21-2018 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1016 by Tangle
01-19-2018 4:28 PM


Re: Separate school and state and religion
taqngle writes:
This is a science thread, so let's stick to science.
There's a very large amount of evidence that tells us that things work the same way elsewhere as they do here. You've been shown some of it. Additionally, despite looking with everything we have, we've found nothing to contradict that.
The supported hypothesis therefore is that stuff happens the same way everywhere. So sure, it must remain possible that stuff is different elsewhere, but until there's any evidence at all that that's the case, the hypothesis stands.
You're objections are irrational and religious. Come back when you have a case.
Yes stick to it! What science have you to prove time exists in deep space as it does here?
Just because something HAPPENS there and is seen here does not mean it takes the same time TO happen!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1016 by Tangle, posted 01-19-2018 4:28 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1027 by dwise1, posted 01-21-2018 3:13 PM creation has replied
 Message 1028 by Tangle, posted 01-21-2018 3:21 PM creation has not replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 1026 of 2073 (827262)
01-21-2018 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1025 by Modulous
01-21-2018 2:42 PM


Re: nature of time
Relativity handles most of that quite nicely.
Explain how relativity of the fishbowl handles telling us the precise nature of time and space far far away?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1025 by Modulous, posted 01-21-2018 2:42 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1029 by Modulous, posted 01-22-2018 8:03 AM creation has replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 1030 of 2073 (827296)
01-22-2018 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1027 by dwise1
01-21-2018 3:13 PM


Re: Separate school and state and religion
dwise1 writes:
...
No. Those who model the universe based on one belief or the other and who call that science, bear the burden of proof. Obviously. Otherwise we all have beliefs, thanks. This being a science forum one would think you would be able to pony up on science claims.
Now we all see you cannot.
Have fun with your religion!
Edited by creation, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1027 by dwise1, posted 01-21-2018 3:13 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1051 by dwise1, posted 01-28-2018 3:54 AM creation has replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 1031 of 2073 (827297)
01-22-2018 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1029 by Modulous
01-22-2018 8:03 AM


Re: nature of time
moduus writes:
They are part of the same spacetime continuum.
We know you believe that. However you need to do more than state it is so. You have provided no reason to support your belief here. Unless time existed the same at all points what you say is absurd. So..how do you think you know time is the same and exists at all points?
Edited by creation, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1029 by Modulous, posted 01-22-2018 8:03 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1032 by Modulous, posted 01-22-2018 10:13 AM creation has replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 1035 of 2073 (827484)
01-26-2018 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 1032 by Modulous
01-22-2018 10:13 AM


Re: nature of time
mod writes:
...
Mercury is in the fishbowl, irrelevant.
You cannot take a triangle, and use the small end to represent time in the fishbowl, and then extend the longer parts to stars as if that also represented space and time there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1032 by Modulous, posted 01-22-2018 10:13 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1037 by Modulous, posted 01-26-2018 1:23 PM creation has replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 1036 of 2073 (827485)
01-26-2018 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1034 by Percy
01-22-2018 1:07 PM


Re: Separate school and state and religion
percy writes:
..
That is quite an admission, not knowing much about time. Then admitting you use light here!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1034 by Percy, posted 01-22-2018 1:07 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1039 by Percy, posted 01-26-2018 6:56 PM creation has replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 1041 of 2073 (827535)
01-27-2018 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1037 by Modulous
01-26-2018 1:23 PM


Re: nature of time
mod writes:
It is evidence for the validity of Relativity. Which you asked for. So that makes it relevant.
NOT to the far universe.
Relativity extends our knowledge to the transfishbowl regions as evidenced by its validity predicting what we'd see out there and given it uses the same rules to predict what we'd see cisfishbowl - it suggests that cisfishbowl and transfishbowl are actually all just one fishbowl following the same rules.
Example of something predicted in deep space? Gravitational lensing won't do. You see that effect out there is not known in detail, since we have so many unknowns. Distances to the stars and how big whatever is seeming to bend the light...for example. So, what else you got?
It is pure madness for you to ask for evidence that things are the same over here as they are over there and then to dismiss that evidence on the grounds that it includes discussion about what happens here.
You need to get the point that the issue is not what we have here in the fishbowl. The time here, and space is of no relevance to the time and space there. No one dismisses what goes on in your backyard, or orbiting the earth, or in the solar system (except for deep under the earth...but I digress)-- there is no need to dismiss the irrelevant.
OK, I won't. I haven't been doing that, would you like to pay attention before replying next time? It'd be appreciated.
You don't accept distances based on trig?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1037 by Modulous, posted 01-26-2018 1:23 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1053 by Modulous, posted 01-28-2018 11:21 AM creation has replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 1042 of 2073 (827536)
01-27-2018 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1039 by Percy
01-26-2018 6:56 PM


Re: Separate school and state and religion
percy writes:
I said that I don't think we know much about the nature of time. For instance, even though the equations of physics are symmetrical for time running either backwards or forwards, time seems to run in only one direction (that would be forwards, in case there was any doubt). We don't understand why that is.
Then tell us what is time exactly?
Is this some kind of big "Aha!" moment for you, that I use light here?
If you use it to tell us about time far far away where the light comes from, it is an admission of truly not knowing.
So, with all the things science doesn't know regarding the old ages they claim for evolution, NO it should not be taught in schools.
Most of the evolving/adapting that is in the fossil record and used for evolution happened long ago and in what nature we don't know.
There is no way we can claim evolution worked as it now does. Specifically, we cannot claim man left any remains in the former nature, that evolving took any great time then, or even that the offspring were the primary way creatures changed. For all we know the living animal could have evolved in that time. Science may not use any of the present state realities and life processes as a gauge to how things were because science does not know what laws were in place then.
Science therefore is religion on these issues and should not be taught at all on origin issues.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1039 by Percy, posted 01-26-2018 6:56 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1048 by Percy, posted 01-27-2018 8:51 PM creation has replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 1043 of 2073 (827538)
01-27-2018 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1040 by jar
01-26-2018 8:13 PM


Re: yes we should teach both evolution and religion in school!
jar writes:
We need to educate our citizenry on the fact that religions, all religions, are the creation of man and that is true across the board.
Especially fake news origin sciences! Also kids should know man did not invent the bible. Unlike science, it is far far too evidenced and broad to be created by man.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1040 by jar, posted 01-26-2018 8:13 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1044 by jar, posted 01-27-2018 2:32 PM creation has replied
 Message 1050 by dwise1, posted 01-28-2018 3:26 AM creation has not replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 1045 of 2073 (827541)
01-27-2018 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1034 by Percy
01-22-2018 1:07 PM


Re: Separate school and state and religion
percy writes:
I don't think we know much about the nature of time. We know that motion tells us time is passing.
Observing that time is passing now is all well and good for the here and now. It does not tell us what will pass in the future. The arrow of time may be a short shot for all we know!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1034 by Percy, posted 01-22-2018 1:07 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1049 by Percy, posted 01-27-2018 9:15 PM creation has replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 1046 of 2073 (827542)
01-27-2018 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1044 by jar
01-27-2018 2:32 PM


Re: yes we should teach both evolution and religion in school!
jar writes:
Except it is filled with fallacies, contradictions, errors and absurdities and the evidence shows it is simply the creation of man ..
Except, no. it is not anything like that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1044 by jar, posted 01-27-2018 2:32 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1047 by jar, posted 01-27-2018 3:04 PM creation has not replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 1054 of 2073 (827615)
01-28-2018 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1053 by Modulous
01-28-2018 11:21 AM


Re: nature of time
mod writes:
Relativity says its the same entity. So, yes actually - for the far universe.
In your dreams. Prove it.
Those aren't unknowns.
Known by religious belief doesn't count even if you claim it is science falsely.
Cosmic Microwave Background radiation, Black Holes, Redshift, the behaviour of binary pulsars, gravitational waves.
None of those things matter or mean what you think unless time exists out in far space as it does here. Gong!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1053 by Modulous, posted 01-28-2018 11:21 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1056 by Coyote, posted 01-28-2018 4:27 PM creation has replied
 Message 1060 by Modulous, posted 01-29-2018 1:51 PM creation has replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 1055 of 2073 (827616)
01-28-2018 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1049 by Percy
01-27-2018 9:15 PM


Re: Separate school and state and religion
percy writes:
If every day over the past 13.5 billion years (the age of the universe)
Imaginary time based on the belief time exists the same in the far universe.
you had placed a bet that the arrow of time would end the next day, you would have lost that bet about 5 trillion times.
Why would I do that? The issue is not that time progresses here now or not. The issue is whether our current nature complete with time as it is now will always exist and always has! From our present perspective time seems a certain way. You can't get beyond that fishbowl perspective.
If you would like to place a bet with me that the arrow of time will end tomorrow I will take that bet every single day from now on. We can double the bet each day so that if you eventually win then you'll make your money back, though ironically without an arrow of time I won't have the time to pay you.
There's no evidence to suggest that "the arrow of time may be a short shot". This is just another of your ill-advised ideas.
Nor the money to pay me since money is temporal also and a feature of this nature.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1049 by Percy, posted 01-27-2018 9:15 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1059 by Percy, posted 01-29-2018 11:12 AM creation has replied

  
creation
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 654
Joined: 01-22-2017


Message 1057 of 2073 (827618)
01-28-2018 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1048 by Percy
01-27-2018 8:51 PM


Re: Separate school and state and religion
percy writes:
Time in physics has a clear and unambiguous definition. A second is 9,192,631,770 cycles of a radiating cesium atom.
No. How long an atom in the fishbowl takes here to do something is not time. That is a clock in the fishbowl!.
We can see it. We know. Your "fishbowl" is a fiction.
Since the fishbowl just refers to how far man has been and what he knows, it is not fiction in any way. What you see, whether an atom or light, is here in the fishbowl! Time here dictates it unfold or behave a certain way in time. That tells us diddly squat about what time is like far far from the fishbowl. That should be obvious.
In public school science classrooms we teach the scientific consensus. Evolution has so much evidence that a scientific consensus has formed around the theory.
They can teach whatever beliefs the local consensus may desire. They may not teach it as anything but beliefs!
There is overwhelming evidence that the natural physical laws of the universe have been unchanged for billions of years.
Great, so post it. You sure haven't yet.
Where is your evidence that evolution ever worked any differently? Given that evolution is based upon fundamental principles such as heredity and adaptation, how could it ever work differently?
All you are doing is confirming your present state bias. 'Gee, things always must have been as they are..'
Says who?
.
Human fossils over a couple hundred thousand years old have been found.
The flood was probably more like 70 million so called science same state past belief based years ago. You fossils are decidedly post flood therefore irrelevant to the issue.
So you accept evolution but believe it used to happen much faster? Any evidence of this, or is this just another idea you're making up.
Yes. I cannot see how all the species we now have were on the ark. I assume the rapid evolving of many kinds took place. Bus as for the evo idea we came from animals or are kin to potatoes..etc..phooey.
You're proposing that organisms evolved during their lifetime? How do you imagine this happening? There are all kinds of problems. How do all the cells in the organism change in the same way at the same time. When an organism evolves into a new species, there will be no organisms of the opposite sex to mate with. And so on.
Easy. Just lose the shackles of current physics. Now imagine a different set of forces acting on those atoms that made up those cells...!
There's a certain consistency in the vacuity of your ideas, and it's because you think them up without first seeking supporting evidence.
No. It is because they fit all scientific evidences as well as God's written record!
Yes, science does know what "laws were in place" in the past. There is no evidence they were ever any different.
Or that they were the same. Don't kid a kidder.
So when you want to say something bad about science you call it a religion? Way to go!
I never asked them to oppose God or base all past models on a belief. Don't blame me for their badness.
Public school science classes should continue to teach the scientific consensus on all subjects.
..As baseless beliefs that are diametrically opposed to Christ the creator...sure.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1048 by Percy, posted 01-27-2018 8:51 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
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