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Author Topic:   Falsifying a young Universe. (re: Supernova 1987A)
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 649 of 948 (823468)
11-10-2017 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 647 by Stile
11-10-2017 12:43 PM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
Perhaps you could be the first to identify an issue, though. Feel free to try.
starman has run away from the debates.
So don't hold your breath.
Enjoy

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 647 by Stile, posted 11-10-2017 12:43 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 657 of 948 (824029)
11-21-2017 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 656 by Aussie
11-21-2017 1:47 PM


Re: A bridge to the stars
Translate: I'm running away.
Probably claiming victory somewhere, because, hey, nobody would debate him ...
LOL

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 656 by Aussie, posted 11-21-2017 1:47 PM Aussie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 658 by Aussie, posted 11-21-2017 4:41 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 668 of 948 (826959)
01-15-2018 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 666 by creation
01-14-2018 11:19 PM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
Hi creation, and welcome to the fray.
quote:
We have hard evidence for how far away stars are..
Let's see it. You seem to believe you do. Ha.
See Message 597 and Message 599 for why we know the distance to SN1987A.
Enjoy
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 666 by creation, posted 01-14-2018 11:19 PM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 670 by creation, posted 01-15-2018 1:21 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 673 of 948 (827000)
01-15-2018 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 670 by creation
01-15-2018 1:21 PM


'creation' making the same bad arguments as 'starman'
Not sure how you think space in our solar system is without time? The base line for the measurement is from the solar system you know, tens of millions of miles. To make that slice of space and time equal in your mind with other lines you draw to a star is assuming time exists not just on the base line, but all the way to the star and that is not known, only believed. So it is not known after all.
Curiously that is the purpose of the game in Message 599 -- it makes any variation in time and the speed of light irrelevant and immaterial to the measurement. It would appear that you are not even trying to understand my arguments. Try again.
'starman' never provide evidence for his claims, and so far neither have you.
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 670 by creation, posted 01-15-2018 1:21 PM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 675 by creation, posted 01-16-2018 9:57 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 680 of 948 (827089)
01-17-2018 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 675 by creation
01-16-2018 9:57 AM


Re: 'creation' making the same bad arguments as 'starman'
You missed the point entirely rendering what you said immaterial. Light will move according to how time exists. If time exists here, as it does, we will see light move a certain speed in our space. No one says that changes. However if there was not time as we know it here, we would not expect light to move as we now see it move in time. The issue is whether time also exists the same as here in far space.
You keep making starman's bad arguments, fascinating. Repeating bad arguments doesn't make them any better.
If time was different, then that is modeled by the random di throw. It varies all over the place, yet you still end up with the distance being measured in current time/space.
Failure to understand this does not invalidate the argument, and nothing you have said in any way contradicts what the game shows.
You do not know. Will you admit it now?
We do know, just like we know your argument fails, that it fails because it has no substance, no evidence, no rational. It fails because opinion is not science nor evidence. Will you admit that it fails? Not that it matters, everyone else knows it.
If time ... if there was not time as we know it here, we would not expect light to move as we now see it move in time. The issue is whether time also exists the same as here in far space.
If time was different then we would expect to see evidence of that. Without evidence there is no reason to think there is a difference.
You have no evidence, you have no theory, you have no argument.
What you have is a delusion that imaginary undetectable differences exist, and taken to a logical conclusion this means everything is illusion, including the chair you sit on.
If you accept your chair as real, then you accept objective empirical evidence for reality, and if you accept that, then you accept science, the study of objective empirical evidence as a measure of reality.
And once you accept that, then you accept that *you* need evidence and evidence based theory to argue against evidence and evidence based theory.
And then you will see that if you have no evidence, you have no theory, and that if you have no theory, then you have no argument that can counter one based on evidence and evidence based theory.
So sit back in your evidence based chair, and see if you can come up with some meager whit of evidence and some tentative attempt at an evidence based theory to support your argument.
Until then we know the distance to SN1987A, just like we know that your chair is real.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 675 by creation, posted 01-16-2018 9:57 AM creation has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 693 of 948 (827292)
01-22-2018 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 690 by creation
01-21-2018 2:46 PM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
If light is moving then there has to be time along the space it is moving across.
Let's accept for the time being that is true. So what!!? I could set a clock, perhaps to move real slow. Or fast. It would still move.
Indeed, proving that the star game shows that we KNOW the distance to the SN. Thanks.
Because your clock affects both paths equally -- they are in the same space, just as our solar system is all in the same space.
If it is not true, then what is actually happening? What is actually happening appears equivalent to it being true. If there is nothing to distinguish between true and not-true, then the concept is pointless and irrelevant.
Let's put it this way
The existence of A is totally explained by theory B
or
The existence of A is explained by theory B modified by concept C, with this modification being completely undescernable, unevidenced and unmeasurable.
Which is the better explanation to use
B or B+C
Well if we subtract B from B+C and have nothing left over that would alter the explanation, then C is irrelevant ...
This, btw, is how Occam's razor works and it is why your fantasy has no legs.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 690 by creation, posted 01-21-2018 2:46 PM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 694 by creation, posted 01-22-2018 9:37 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 696 of 948 (827307)
01-22-2018 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 694 by creation
01-22-2018 9:37 AM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
Actually, having time different here than where a star is does the opposite. ...
Says the person who denies that the game models this, and still ends up with a scientific distance to SN1987A.
Of course, admitting that fact would mean that the fantasy is exposed as the garbage concept it is.
Ignoring evidence that contradicts your belief is delusion.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 694 by creation, posted 01-22-2018 9:37 AM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 701 by creation, posted 01-26-2018 9:35 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 706 of 948 (827486)
01-26-2018 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 700 by creation
01-26-2018 9:33 AM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
The evidence for a same time in deep space is zilch. ...
Curiously, denying the evidence again and again does not make it go away. The only one you are fooling is yourself.
The star checker game shows your assertions to be fantasy.
... God any actual science?
Last time I checked God was not a science.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 700 by creation, posted 01-26-2018 9:33 AM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 714 by creation, posted 01-27-2018 1:39 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 709 of 948 (827500)
01-26-2018 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 701 by creation
01-26-2018 9:35 AM


Re: The Win-Win and WIN again situation for Science
razd writes:
Says the person who denies that the game models this, and still ends up with a scientific distance to SN1987A.
Of course, admitting that fact would mean that the fantasy is exposed as the garbage concept it is.
Ignoring evidence that contradicts your belief is delusion.
Please do not ignore that you have provided no evidence for time existing as it does on earth in deep space.
Says the person who has no evidence presented to ignore. Every test scientists have made show a continuous pattern of time-space, and there is no cause, no rational, no reason, to believe anything else.
Amusingly the star space checker game accounts for things being different.
In addition you have failed to present any evidence whatsoever that there has been any kind of change. You want us to 'prove' you wrong when you have provided no evidence to evaluate for truthiness.
Wishing is not science, denial of science is not science, making stuff up out of the blue is not science.
You need to show the errors and evidence that it is errors (not make it up) if you want to say the current understanding of time and space is wrong. The onus is on you.
Once again you provide a stellar example of the ridiculous lengths creationists will go to pretend that reality does not exist as described by science -- you have to make everything illusion with not one thing based on fact.
Teaching moments like this almost become comedy routines, when you keep playing patsy, doing the same prat-falls over and over and over again.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 701 by creation, posted 01-26-2018 9:35 AM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 718 by creation, posted 01-27-2018 1:56 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 712 of 948 (827523)
01-27-2018 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 701 by creation
01-26-2018 9:35 AM


A couple questions for creation ...
Please do not ignore that you have provided no evidence for time existing as it does on earth in deep space.
Please define the limits of your "fishbowl" ... is it your brain? the earth? the solar system? the galaxy? the universe?
Where's the line?
How do you know?
How can we tell if you are right?
You have made similar claims about the past ... what is the limit of our knowledge of the past: is it your lifetime? written history? the archeological history of human existence? the paleontological history of life of earth? the age of the earth? the age of the universe?
Where's the line?
How do you know?
How can we tell if you are right?
If you can't answer these questions, then why should we consider your argument worth considering?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 701 by creation, posted 01-26-2018 9:35 AM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 719 by creation, posted 01-27-2018 1:59 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 722 of 948 (827550)
01-27-2018 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 714 by creation
01-27-2018 1:39 PM


Re: The Win-Win situation for Science
Nothing posted that dealt with the evidence.
Worthless babble.
Repeated.
Pathetic

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RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 714 by creation, posted 01-27-2018 1:39 PM creation has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 724 of 948 (827552)
01-27-2018 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 718 by creation
01-27-2018 1:56 PM


Re: The Win-Win and WIN again situation for Science
Another post devoid of evidence.
More irrational babble.
Sad.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 718 by creation, posted 01-27-2018 1:56 PM creation has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 725 of 948 (827553)
01-27-2018 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 719 by creation
01-27-2018 1:59 PM


Re: A couple questions for creation ...
The fishbowl is just a term to describe the solar system and area where man has actually been and has some direct knowledge.
This is totally inadequate. The post this is a purported reply to is:
quote:
Please do not ignore that you have provided no evidence for time existing as it does on earth in deep space.
Please define the limits of your "fishbowl" ... is it your brain? the earth? the solar system? the galaxy? the universe?
Where's the line?
How do you know?
How can we tell if you are right?
You have made similar claims about the past ... what is the limit of our knowledge of the past: is it your lifetime? written history? the archeological history of human existence? the paleontological history of life of earth? the age of the earth? the age of the universe?
Where's the line?
How do you know?
How can we tell if you are right?
If you can't answer these questions, then why should we consider your argument worth considering?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Without answers to those other questions, your reply is meaningless.
The fishbowl is just a term to describe the solar system and area where man has actually been and has some direct knowledge
Where's the line? is it fixed or expanding?
How do you know?
How can we tell if you are right?
How can WE know it is not your brain pretending to think?
What difference is there just outside your imagined boundary? What happens when outside becomes inside?
How do you know?
How can we tell you are right?
How do you know it is not just your imagination?
Note that you have not made a single post that doesn't violate Rule 4:
quote:
Points should be supported with evidence and reasoned argumentation. Address rebuttals through the introduction of additional evidence or by enlarging upon the argument. Do not repeat previous points without further elaboration. Avoid bare assertions.
Total fail.
Again.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : .

we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 719 by creation, posted 01-27-2018 1:59 PM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 730 by creation, posted 01-28-2018 4:07 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 735 of 948 (827645)
01-29-2018 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 730 by creation
01-28-2018 4:07 PM


Re: A couple questions for creation ...
razd writes:
Please define the limits of your "fishbowl" ... is it your brain? the earth? the solar system? the galaxy? the universe?
Where's the line?
Since the furthest probe is not even a light day away, we can stat there. The limits of where man has been are clear. Since the fishbowl is just a term referring to what we know and where we have been, the limits are self evident.
So the line, the boundary of the fishbowl is a sphere with a 1 light day radius.
Okay, we can start there. It looks totally arbitrary, (why not 1 light day plus a foot? a mile?) but we can start there.
razd writes:
How do you know?
How can we tell if you are right?
You didn't answer these questions. Drawing an arbitrary imagined line in space has no reason to be accepted until you can tell us how you know, and how we can check to see whether you are right or just making stuff up.
What experiment have you run that we can test and try to repeat?
These are the important questions that show it is not totally arbitrary.
Then we get to questions like
  1. What is it like just outside the line?
    • Is just 1" outside 99.999999 similar to inside? or totally different?
    • what causes the difference?
    • how do you know?
    • how can we tell you are right
    and
  2. As voyager moves does the line move?
    • Why?
    • If yes, what makes it move?
    • if no, what makes it stay?
    • how do you know?
    • how can we tell you are right
As you can see, there are many questions you need to answer before you demonstrate cause to accept your concept as anything but fantasy.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 730 by creation, posted 01-28-2018 4:07 PM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 740 by creation, posted 10-02-2018 7:17 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 756 of 948 (841029)
10-07-2018 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 740 by creation
10-02-2018 7:17 PM


Re: A couple questions for creation ...
No. Currently man has not gone beyond that line, if he does, then we extend it. ...
In other words it is pure fantasy, and no rational person need give it a second thought. Got it.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 740 by creation, posted 10-02-2018 7:17 PM creation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 758 by creation, posted 10-08-2018 9:51 AM RAZD has replied

  
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