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Author Topic:   Does Atheism = No beliefs?
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 345 of 414 (786782)
06-27-2016 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 332 by Theodoric
06-22-2016 8:14 PM


Theodoric writes:
Gnostic Atheist - Knows there is no god and does not believe either
Agnostic Atheist - Concedes has no knowledge there is no god, but has no belief or reason to believe there is.
They only rational choices are the agnostic ones. It is impossible to know something with no evidence to back up that knowledge.
This doesn't seem right to me.
If it's not rational to say you "know there is no god..." is it ever rational to say you "know there is no Santa Claus...?"
If we have reports on where something should be, how it should act... and we check those places and the consequences we should find, and nothing is ever found... over and over and over...
When does it become rational to say you know the thing doesn't exist?
"Never." Seems a bit too far fetched, to me.
Rewording the issue another way:
Is it possible to rationally say you know something... and then be proven wrong by additional information obtained at some point in the future?
Does "knowledge" imply "absolute perfection?"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by Theodoric, posted 06-22-2016 8:14 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 346 by ringo, posted 06-27-2016 12:22 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied
 Message 347 by Theodoric, posted 06-27-2016 11:32 PM Stile has replied
 Message 349 by Phat, posted 01-21-2018 10:50 AM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 348 of 414 (786844)
06-28-2016 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 347 by Theodoric
06-27-2016 11:32 PM


Theodoric writes:
Semantics? Hair splitting? Maybe.
Yeah, on second thought, that's probably all my point comes down to.
Agreed upon definitions of "knowledge" and "rational" and such would probably clear it all up just fine.
As for Santa Claus we can look at the literary and historical record to show its origins. So that is direct knowledge we have. Also, we know he does not visit our houses on Christmas.
Agreed.
I would also say we have the same sort of direct evidence for God.
Possibly not a document from someone saying "I made God up.." But if that's the only sticking point between rationally knowing something exists or not... then I think it's on fairly shaky ground anyway.
If anyone cares to follow up on this line of thinking, this would probably be a better place to do such so as to not go too far off topic here.
Also, I love to shamelessly plug any thread I started in the past
I Know That God Does Not Exist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by Theodoric, posted 06-27-2016 11:32 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 352 of 414 (827362)
01-23-2018 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 349 by Phat
01-21-2018 10:50 AM


Re: Where To Look
Phat writes:
With Santa Claus, we have a likely location on earth. You cant know that something or someone is not there until you can establish where there is.
Right.
Santa Claus used to have a physical location.
Then we looked there, and there was no Santa Claus.
God used to have a physical location.
Then we looked there, and there was no God.
You cant know that something or someone is not there until you can establish where there is.
Read that carefully.
Now apply the idea to what some are trying to say about where God is now.
How can they know that something or someone is there until they can establish where there is?
Obviously, if someone is claiming that God exists... just "everywhere" or "you can't detect Him" or something like that... how are they making that claim?
They aren't.
Or, at least, we know they're not making such a claim rationally.
quote:
If it's not rational to say you "know there is no god..." is it ever rational to say you "know there is no Santa Claus...?"
What good is "being rational" if you can't be rational enough to say you know there is no Santa Claus?
Just be honest with yourself.
If you don't want to be rational... then don't be rational.
Just don't lie to yourself about it as that causes other internal issues and unhappiness that will be much more difficult to overcome (examples of the pitfalls of such things are evident all over these forums...)
So God isn't any more rational than Santa Claus.
Who cares?
Do you think God cares, if He exists?
If He did, wouldn't that make Him sensitive, immature and unworthy?
If you see the upsides and positives about being rational in certain situations... then use the power of rationality in those situations.
But if you try to re-define the idea of rationality so that you can feel like you're getting those upsides and positives in a situation where they just don't apply... you're only fooling yourself. And then you diminish the power of "real" rationality even when used where you used to enjoy it. ...because you'll "know" (because you taught it to yourself) that "rationality" isn't all that great anyway... it can't even help you find God.
Well, duh.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by Phat, posted 01-21-2018 10:50 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 353 by Phat, posted 01-23-2018 4:28 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 356 of 414 (827434)
01-24-2018 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 353 by Phat
01-23-2018 4:28 PM


Re: Where To Look
Phat writes:
Where praytell was this location whence you speak?
Heaven. In the clouds.
Turns out there are no gods there.
Granted, it was a long time ago... but does that make it better or worse?
The point, regardless, is that people give Santa and God descriptions that can be tested in reality.
Some might be physical locations.
Some might be controlling certain weather.
Some might be helping this or that situation in reality.
In all cases where things can be checked, though... it comes down to the same answer. No Santa, and No God.
That leaves us with all the cases where things can't be checked.
Which leaves us with the problem of "rationality."
If it can't be checked... what's the rational reason to think Santa or God is there in the first place?
Other than, of course, that certain people want Santa or God to be somewhere... anywhere... and those are the only places left.
Not very rational for the idea of figuring out if they exist or not.
But, very helpful for the idea of holding onto a personally-desired story that doesn't seem to have any anchor in reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by Phat, posted 01-23-2018 4:28 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by Pressie, posted 01-25-2018 7:22 AM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 358 of 414 (827449)
01-25-2018 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 357 by Pressie
01-25-2018 7:22 AM


Re: It's funny
Pressie writes:
Does that count as a belief or a non-belief?
"I don't know what's going on."
-The Cure

This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by Pressie, posted 01-25-2018 7:22 AM Pressie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 370 by Pressie, posted 01-29-2018 5:03 AM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 369 of 414 (827475)
01-26-2018 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 368 by Rrhain
01-26-2018 3:45 AM


Rrhain writes:
F'rinstance, atheists celebrate Christmas.
Atheist Christmas is the funnest Christmas!
All the good stuff, none of the boring stuff!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 368 by Rrhain, posted 01-26-2018 3:45 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 380 of 414 (827707)
01-30-2018 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 370 by Pressie
01-29-2018 5:03 AM


Re: It's funny
Pressie writes:
It's just that you don't want to answer the question.
I do, actually. I want to answer your question.
I just can't make out what your question is, or what you're attempting to ask.
I am a radical, militant atheist and I don't think that I would ever be tempted to put my male sex organ into the cloaca of Rudolph the red-nosed reindeer. I don't even have chimney at home . Does that count as a belief or a non-belief?
I'm sure that under certain additional circumstances... it could be considered a belief.
Let's say... we all know that Rudolph is made up. So the exact characteristics of his cloaca could be ill-defined.
Therefore, it could be reasonable to say that no amount of experience you have with putting your organs anywhere real and defined are irrelevant. Therefore, since there is an extremely limited amount of data available, this idea could be a belief.
And under other certain additional circumstances... it could be considered a non-belief.
Let's say... you have a very strict definition of Rudolph's cloaca and are very experienced with putting your sex organs in non-human orifices. Some you like, some you don't. But, according to your experience and your strict definition of Rudolph... anyone can clearly see how you derive your conclusion. Therefore, since this idea is based on the data, it can be considered a non-belief.
What I don't understand is what difference would it make?
Who cares if it's a belief or a non-belief?
Are you trying to link your statements to the original post of this thread?
Den in Message 1 writes:
1. Does Atheism has any beliefs which are unique to Atheism?
2. Is the so called "freedom" of Atheism just the illusion given by an endless empty space that traps and imprisons the intellect?
I, personally, think that Atheism = not believing in God. That's it. Nothing more.
Therefore, to me, the answer to #1 is "possibly, but I doubt it... and I don't care."
And my answer to #2 is "I don't think not-believing-in-God in and of itself affords one any sort of special freedom."
I get the feeling that you're ascribing some sort of philosophy onto me... and then asking me "provoking" questions.
But I have no idea of the philosophy you're ascribing to me, or what you're attempting to provoke, or why you even think any of this is relevant.
But, yes, I'd like to answer your question... if you actually have one that I can understand.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 370 by Pressie, posted 01-29-2018 5:03 AM Pressie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 381 by Pressie, posted 01-31-2018 6:48 AM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 382 of 414 (827740)
01-31-2018 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 381 by Pressie
01-31-2018 6:48 AM


Re: It's funny
Pressie writes:
Is the idea that the earth will keep on turning for billions of years and that the earth turns around the sun a belief?
Not generally, no.
If you think that it's a belief you try to drag down facts to the level of unevidenced, ridiculously stupid religion.
Yes, I see your general point.
Of course, there are always exceptions... like if someone held it as a belief.... but they're open to updating their ideas upon receiving information that explains the data the non-belief-idea is based upon... then it doesn't drag anything down. One would simply have been ignorant, and then cured of the ignorance (upon learning of the data/evidence). Such happens for all of us. In fact, such an education would be the living embodiment of the ideas science is based on.
I'm still not really sure what sort of point you're trying to make, though.
If you're just saying, in general, that those who adamantly and ignorantly state certain known-scientific-facts are "beliefs" are doing science a disservice... I completely agree with you.
I would also agree with you if, in general, you stated that eating vegetables is good for your health.
I agree with both statements, yet I would be left equally confused as to why you thought it would be important to "drive home" such points with me. As far as I can tell, everything I state is in line with adhering to such ideas already.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 381 by Pressie, posted 01-31-2018 6:48 AM Pressie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 383 by Pressie, posted 02-01-2018 8:07 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 387 of 414 (827830)
02-02-2018 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 385 by Phat
02-02-2018 3:42 AM


Re: It's funny
Phat writes:
It seems you invest a lot of energy into denigrating the idea of religion. Why not just be like Stile and let it go? This whole militant thing seems a waste of energy.
As much as I, personally, don't have a gripe with religion... and I even think it's possible to have a "good" religion... I understand that this is only my personal experience.
Many people have different personal experiences, in which religions were very evil and used as very evil tools towards them (or maybe those they care about).
I think such people have a very good reason to be upset, and even prejudiced against religion.
Even though I don't fully agree with the stance myself (because such have not been my experiences) I do know enough about the problems certain religions have caused to agree that such a stance can be fully justified and even required in certain circumstances.
As much as I let people have their religion and get whatever-benefits-they-can from it.
I also let people have their anti-religion and get whatever-benefits-they-can from it.
The only caveat (on both) is the same caveat that's on the end of most things most people say: "...as long as you're not hurting anyone."
At the end of the day... I am not like Pressie, but I am glad that people like Pressie exist... they get certain balls rolling in the direction I prefer where I might be more hesitant to pick that particular battle.
Edited by Stile, : I grammar good.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 385 by Phat, posted 02-02-2018 3:42 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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