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Author Topic:   The Marketing Of Christianity
ringo
Member
Posts: 14570
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 557 of 591 (827495)
01-26-2018 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 556 by Phat
01-09-2018 2:44 PM


Re: God Unplugged
Phat writes:

Hopefully people at least try and believe in a bigger God than the one they can make up.


Ever hear of creationists? They're constantly trying to figure out how Goddidit.

Phat writes:

Is your imaginary God bigger than what science can prove?


quote:
Chaplain: Let us praise God. O Lord...

Congregation: O Lord...

Chaplain: ...Ooh, You are so big...

Congregation: ...ooh, You are so big...

Chaplain: ...So absolutely huge.

Congregation: ...So absolutely huge.

Chaplain: Gosh, we're all really impressed down here, I can tell You.

Congregation: Gosh, we're all really impressed down here, I can tell You.

Chaplain: Forgive us, O Lord, for this, our dreadful toadying, and...

Congregation: And barefaced flattery.

Chaplain: But You are so strong and, well, just so super.

Congregation: Fantastic.

Humphrey: Amen.

Congregation: Amen.



This message is a reply to:
 Message 556 by Phat, posted 01-09-2018 2:44 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10751
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 558 of 591 (827776)
02-01-2018 2:40 AM
Reply to: Message 487 by dwise1
11-21-2017 10:30 AM


Re: Food For Thought
dwise1 writes:

...but either you believe or you don't -- you cannot choose to believe.

As I was rereading this thread, your statement jumped out...and i disagree with it. In my opinion, belief is entirely a choice. The evidence is not that important nor persuasive to me. And not that there is a conclusive amount of it.

Believers who remain, believers, have more of a need to believe than do former believers, who are easily swayed by evidence.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 487 by dwise1, posted 11-21-2017 10:30 AM dwise1 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 559 by ringo, posted 02-01-2018 11:36 AM Phat has responded
 Message 576 by dwise1, posted 03-14-2018 3:59 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 579 by dwise1, posted 03-16-2018 3:03 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14570
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 559 of 591 (827792)
02-01-2018 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 558 by Phat
02-01-2018 2:40 AM


Re: Food For Thought
Phat writes:

In my opinion, belief is entirely a choice.


So choose to believe in Zeus.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 558 by Phat, posted 02-01-2018 2:40 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 560 by Phat, posted 02-01-2018 11:58 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10751
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 560 of 591 (827793)
02-01-2018 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 559 by ringo
02-01-2018 11:36 AM


Re: Food For Thought
Why?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 559 by ringo, posted 02-01-2018 11:36 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 561 by ringo, posted 02-01-2018 12:04 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14570
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 561 of 591 (827794)
02-01-2018 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 560 by Phat
02-01-2018 11:58 AM


Re: Food For Thought
Phat writes:

Why?


If you believe that you can choose to believe, why not demonstrate that you can?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 560 by Phat, posted 02-01-2018 11:58 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 562 by Phat, posted 02-01-2018 4:19 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10751
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 562 of 591 (827811)
02-01-2018 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 561 by ringo
02-01-2018 12:04 PM


Re: Food For Thought
I have no need to believe in Zeus. He has nothing useful to offer me.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 561 by ringo, posted 02-01-2018 12:04 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 563 by Tangle, posted 02-01-2018 5:48 PM Phat has responded
 Message 568 by ringo, posted 02-02-2018 10:54 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5668
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 563 of 591 (827812)
02-01-2018 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 562 by Phat
02-01-2018 4:19 PM


Re: Food For Thought
Phat writes:

I have no need to believe in Zeus. He has nothing useful to offer me.

Can you accept that the reason you believe in Jesus and not Mohamed is because you were born into a society where Jesus was the dominant belief persona?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 562 by Phat, posted 02-01-2018 4:19 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 564 by Phat, posted 02-02-2018 4:06 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10751
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 564 of 591 (827821)
02-02-2018 4:06 AM
Reply to: Message 563 by Tangle
02-01-2018 5:48 PM


Re: Food For Thought
Yes I can accept that premise. Logically, it makes sense.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 563 by Tangle, posted 02-01-2018 5:48 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 565 by Tangle, posted 02-02-2018 4:55 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5668
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 565 of 591 (827823)
02-02-2018 4:55 AM
Reply to: Message 564 by Phat
02-02-2018 4:06 AM


Re: Food For Thought
Phat writes:

Yes I can accept that premise. Logically, it makes sense.

And if you were born in Mumbai you would believe in Hinduism and if in Japan, Shinto or Buddism dependent on you parents.

You have to accept also that had you been born in Stockholm the high probability is that you'd be an atheist.

I don't think many people believe or don't believe out of choice, I think they learn belief from the societies they are born in. A small proportion then either change their beliefs or lose them depending on their personalities and culture that surrounds them.

If you live in a society that is isolated from others and does not allow dissent, beliefs wiil continue; the more open and liberal the society the less those beliefs survive and propogate.

All this just means that your beliefs can not be The Truth, or if it is, it's by pure chance.

Personally, if I was a believer I'd find this fact very destructive. That and the problem of suffering would be a clincher.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 564 by Phat, posted 02-02-2018 4:06 AM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 566 by Stile, posted 02-02-2018 9:51 AM Tangle has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3167
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 566 of 591 (827831)
02-02-2018 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 565 by Tangle
02-02-2018 4:55 AM


Re: Food For Thought
Tangle writes:

Personally, if I was a believer I'd find this fact very destructive. That and the problem of suffering would be a clincher.

Those are definitely two of the biggies that ended religion's usefulness with me.
(I was raised a Catholic, and was fairly devout until, well, not being devout.)

They are also two of the biggies that no religiously-minded person seems to have sufficient answers for, as well (as judged by me.)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 565 by Tangle, posted 02-02-2018 4:55 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 567 by Tangle, posted 02-02-2018 10:02 AM Stile has acknowledged this reply

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5668
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 567 of 591 (827834)
02-02-2018 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 566 by Stile
02-02-2018 9:51 AM


Re: Food For Thought
Stile writes:

Those are definitely two of the biggies that ended religion's usefulness with me.

The third of course being that science has rendered the bible stories to myth and metaphor.

There's reaaly nothing left bar pomp, circumstance and tradition.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 566 by Stile, posted 02-02-2018 9:51 AM Stile has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14570
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 568 of 591 (827844)
02-02-2018 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 562 by Phat
02-01-2018 4:19 PM


Re: Food For Thought
Phat writes:

I have no need to believe in Zeus. He has nothing useful to offer me.


You have the same need for Zeus that you have for Jehovah. Why choose one over the other?

And if you really believe that you can choose, why not demonstrate that you can?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 562 by Phat, posted 02-01-2018 4:19 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 569 by Phat, posted 03-14-2018 11:14 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10751
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 569 of 591 (829794)
03-14-2018 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 568 by ringo
02-02-2018 10:54 AM


Re: Food For Thought
ringo writes:

You have the same need for Zeus that you have for Jehovah. Why choose one over the other?

Does a man have the same need for his Mother as he does for a random matronly figure whom he happens to meet?

Way back when he was born, he well could have chosen the nurse as his bonding influence if he was aware of her before Mom held him.

And yet Mom became Mom. Did he choose her? Could he have chosen anyone else?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 568 by ringo, posted 02-02-2018 10:54 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 570 by NoNukes, posted 03-14-2018 12:33 PM Phat has responded
 Message 571 by jar, posted 03-14-2018 12:50 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 575 by ringo, posted 03-14-2018 3:38 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10577
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 570 of 591 (829796)
03-14-2018 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 569 by Phat
03-14-2018 11:14 AM


Re: Food For Thought
Way back when he was born, he well could have chosen the nurse as his bonding influence if he was aware of her before Mom held him.

And yet Mom became Mom. Did he choose her? Could he have chosen anyone else?

Mom took the child home and there was no more nurse. Are you claiming that if the reverse had happened that the child would have rejected the nurse?

Your example is garbage. The child did not choose mom over the nurse because of some Mom thing. Instead, the child became attached over a day or so of spending time with a mom who festooned love on the baby. Then mom then went home with the child, with the child having no say so about which car he or she was placed in.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 569 by Phat, posted 03-14-2018 11:14 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 572 by Phat, posted 03-14-2018 2:13 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30315
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 571 of 591 (829798)
03-14-2018 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 569 by Phat
03-14-2018 11:14 AM


Re: Food For Thought
Phat writes:

Does a man have the same need for his Mother as he does for a random matronly figure whom he happens to meet?

A child has no need for a mother at all, a child has need of food and protection and comfort and nurture. Kids adopted at birth do just fine even if their mom is not their biological mom.

Phat writes:

Way back when he was born, he well could have chosen the nurse as his bonding influence if he was aware of her before Mom held him.

Kids don't choose bonding, it is just another natural process.

Phat writes:

And yet Mom became Mom. Did he choose her? Could he have chosen anyone else?

The thing that provides food and warmth and comfort and soothing sounds becomes the object the child bonds with. Try taking away a childs teddy or blanky or binky.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 569 by Phat, posted 03-14-2018 11:14 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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