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Author Topic:   Creation
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 457 of 1482 (827855)
02-02-2018 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 456 by ringo
02-02-2018 10:48 AM


Re: Creation
Hi ringo,
ringo writes:
If the creation was not complete in verse 2, how could it be "completed" in verse 1?
What did not exist in Genesis 1:2?
quote:
Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
The earth was there.
That requires the universe to exist as the earth is in the universe.
There was water there.
It does seem like it was in a mess at this particular time but it was not created in that condition in Genesis 1:1.
quote:
45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
The same word translated without form in Genesis 1:2 is translated void in Isaiah 45:18, and without form in Jeremiah 4:23.
Jeremiah saw the earth in the condition it is described as being in Genesis 1:1.
quote:
Jeremiah
4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
Jeremiah is looking at an earth in the condition found in Genesis 1:2 and describing it as uninhabitable as all the cities had been destroyed there was no man there and the birds had fled.
There is no other time in earth's history that would fit Jeremiah's description as there were humans, animals and birds after the flood of Noah.
Now if you would like to go back and take my analysis of Genesis 1:1 and show me where I am mistaken please do so.
Because Genesis 1:1 is what says that the heavens and the earth were a finished product at the end of the verse.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 456 by ringo, posted 02-02-2018 10:48 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 460 by ringo, posted 02-03-2018 11:12 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 458 of 1482 (827860)
02-02-2018 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 455 by NoNukes
02-02-2018 12:21 AM


Re: days and dates
Hi NoNukes,
NoNukes, writes:
That statement is just stupid ICANT. And since I believe that your own intelligence does not sink so low, I am forced to the conclusion that you are just dishonest. Moses had nouns regardless of what he would have called them. He also had hands although I am sure he would not have used the English word for those appendages at the end of his arms. Apparently, you will say just about anything without the slightest remorse. That's why folks should not even bother having a discussion with you.
My argument then and now is that there was no such thing as a noun in Moses days.
It was whatever they called them.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 455 by NoNukes, posted 02-02-2018 12:21 AM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 459 by Phat, posted 02-03-2018 8:31 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 484 by Aussie, posted 02-07-2018 2:02 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 461 of 1482 (827886)
02-03-2018 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 459 by Phat
02-03-2018 8:31 AM


Re: A Noun By Any Other Name
Hi Phat,
Phat writes:
Perhaps a better question would be this: Was there a person, place or thing in Moses day?
Yes there were people, places, and things in Moses days.
Phat writes:
How did people think in those days? That's the real question.
A lot different than we do today. They though of things being finished or ongoing. They thought that way because they only had verbs of action which told them an action was completed or was ongoing action.
That is the reason ringo and others can not understand that anyone reading what Moses wrote that understands Biblical Hebrew would conclude the Heavens and the Earth were completed in Genesis 1:1. There was no ongoing creation taking place.
The only other creation events in Genesis is the one in Genesis 1:21 when God created what was translated as whales but was nothing more than the fish to swallow Jonah. The other creation event was when God created mankind in Genesis 1:27. No other creation events took place.
Young earth creationism as discussed on EvC did not begin until the mid 1800's with Ellen G. White, who was one of the founders of the Seventh Day Adventist.
Old earth teachings go back to I don't know when. Origen believed in a pre-Adamic fall of beings that ended with a catastrophic event leaving the earth existing in the condition it is found in Genesis 1:2.
Origen, for example, who lived from 186 to about 254 A.D., and
to whom the original languages of the Bible were very familiar, has
this to say in his great work, De Principiis, at Gen. 1.1:
quote:
"It is certain that the present firmament is not spoken of
in this verse, nor the present dry land, but rather that heaven
and earth from which this present heaven and earth that we now see afterwards borrowed their names."
Einstein believed the heavens and the earth were old as he believed it was eternal.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 459 by Phat, posted 02-03-2018 8:31 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 462 by NoNukes, posted 02-03-2018 9:23 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 463 of 1482 (827889)
02-03-2018 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 460 by ringo
02-03-2018 11:12 AM


Re: Creation
Hi ringo,
ringo writes:
Your reference from Isaiah doesn't support your claim that the creation was complete in Genesis 1:1. It's just a general reference to the whole creation.
quote:
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
The first verse says God created the heavens and the earth.
You say it was not a completed creation, as it was created 'without form and void' Genesis 1:2.
quote:
Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
The same word translated without form in Genesis 1:2 is translated void in Isaiah 45:18.
Isaiah says it was not created without form.
Verse 2 does not say it was created without form. It does say 'now the earth existed' without form and void.
ringo writes:
Again, Jeremiah was not distinguishing between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2.
No he did not say anything about Genesis 1:1.
Jeremiah did say he saw the earth in the following condition:
quote:
Jeremiah
4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
Now if Jeremiah was not talking about the condition of the earth in Genesis 1:2, when was the earth in that condition that he could observe?
ringo writes:
He wasn't talking about a time in earth's history - i.e. he wasn't talking about Genesis at all. Look at Jeremiah 4;27-29:
He was talking about a future time when Israel would be destroyed if it didn't obey God.
When you get to an intersection that has a stop sign on your entrance into the intersection do you stop or speed on through the intersection. I don't think so.
But that is what you did when you went through the stop sign at the end of verse 26.
Verse 27 through 31 is a prophesy of a time and event yet to come to be, and yes it has to do with the children of Israel, and will happen in the last days. The next chapter verse 1 begins another prophesy and goes through verse 13. Verse 14-17 starts another prophesy. Verse 18-31 is another prophesy.
When Jeremiah said "I beheld (saw)" He was got giving a prophesy. He was talking about something he had observed (seen).
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 460 by ringo, posted 02-03-2018 11:12 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 466 by ringo, posted 02-04-2018 1:18 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 464 of 1482 (827890)
02-03-2018 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 462 by NoNukes
02-03-2018 9:23 PM


Re: A Noun By Any Other Name
Hi NoNukes,
NoNukes writes:
Einstein did believe in a static universe... until the evidence convinced him otherwise. But let's tell half of a story because that's the next best thing to just flat out lying.
Are you now saying he believed in a young earth as in YECism?
Who is presenting false hoods now?
But didn't he spend the rest of his life trying to figure out how God did it since it had to have a beginning to exist?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 462 by NoNukes, posted 02-03-2018 9:23 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 465 by Phat, posted 02-04-2018 9:33 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 467 by NoNukes, posted 02-04-2018 1:56 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 468 by Modulous, posted 02-04-2018 2:01 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 469 of 1482 (827902)
02-04-2018 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 467 by NoNukes
02-04-2018 1:56 PM


Re: A Noun By Any Other Name
Hi NoNukes,
NoNukes writes:
I said that Einstein understood that his modeling of the universe as static was an error.
Yes.
Static universe = a super old earth like eternal.
BBT = and old earth.
NoNukes writes:
That particular truth is well known and documented.
Well he did not accept the expanding universe because he created his fudge factor which much later he said was his biggest mistake. I see you forgot that part.
NoNukes writes:
No ICANT. That would be more pure fiction posted by you. Keep posting as you do. It reveals your character and your zeal for the truth, or at least the lack thereof.
Did I make a statement representing a fact or did I ask a question?
Since when is asking a question telling a lie?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 467 by NoNukes, posted 02-04-2018 1:56 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 470 by NoNukes, posted 02-04-2018 4:14 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 471 of 1482 (827906)
02-04-2018 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 466 by ringo
02-04-2018 1:18 PM


Re: Creation
Hi ringo,
ringo writes:
There is no stop sign.
There is a stop sign at the end of Genesis 1:1.
There is a stop sign at the end of Jeremiah 4:26.
The Hebrew Bible was not divided into chapters and verses until 1571. Prior to that and from the Sinai there were parshiyos. which was a space in the text which was stop signs.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 466 by ringo, posted 02-04-2018 1:18 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 472 by NoNukes, posted 02-04-2018 5:15 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 473 by ringo, posted 02-05-2018 10:49 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 474 of 1482 (827952)
02-06-2018 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 472 by NoNukes
02-04-2018 5:15 PM


Re: Creation
Hi NoNukes,
NoNukes writes:
Perhaps something more than a space is needed to make whatever your point might be.
Take a good look at my avatar and you will see what I mean about a space at the end of a paragraph.
This is a picture of the Dead Sea Scrolls from 185 BC.
As I said at the end of a paragraph there is a space. The ones in the picture is highlighted in yellow.
This space is to separate the preceding information from the information that is to follow.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 472 by NoNukes, posted 02-04-2018 5:15 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 475 by NoNukes, posted 02-06-2018 11:46 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 476 of 1482 (827969)
02-06-2018 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 473 by ringo
02-05-2018 10:49 AM


Re: Creation
Hi ringo,
ringo writes:
A parashah is similar to a paragraph break. It can be used to indicate the end of one story and the start of another but sometimes it's just a dramatic pause.
parashah was invented by the Masoretes to mark a specific topic for reading in the Sabbath worship.
You depend on definitions that can be edited by just about anyone, too much.
The spaces in the picture of the Dead Sea Scrolls was not invented by the Masoretes, as it was text that had no vowels, accents, or punctuation.
To see those spaces in the Dead Sea Scrolls, just look at my avatar.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 473 by ringo, posted 02-05-2018 10:49 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 485 by ringo, posted 02-07-2018 2:49 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 477 of 1482 (827978)
02-06-2018 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 475 by NoNukes
02-06-2018 11:46 AM


Re: Creation
Hi NoNukes,
NoNukes writes:
No break between there and verse 26 right? Notice how I am pointing to text and making my argument based on what is there rather than trying to interpret a space?
The subject changes at verse 22.
NoNukes writes:
Even if there is a break between verse 26 and 27, your suggestion that that alters the meaning in some way is just your interpretation.
The subject changes at verse 22 and the subject changes at verse 27.
The verb ראה 'I beheld' is qal perfect meaning what Jeremiah saw was a completed event.
Verse 27 is referring to a future event.
NoNukes writes:
Absent some separate reason to believe you over what is clearly on the page, I don't believe you.
You are free to believe whatever you choose to believe.
But if you think I am wrong please show me where Jeremiah could have saw what he described anywhere else in the Bible.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 475 by NoNukes, posted 02-06-2018 11:46 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 478 by NoNukes, posted 02-06-2018 11:35 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 479 of 1482 (827985)
02-07-2018 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 478 by NoNukes
02-06-2018 11:35 PM


Re: Creation
Hi NoNukes,
NoNukes writes:
It is your theory and not mine that Jeremiah is describing past events. I don't need to show any such thing.
It is not a theory.
It is a fact according to the text.
I can't help it if you forgot how to read.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 478 by NoNukes, posted 02-06-2018 11:35 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 480 by NoNukes, posted 02-07-2018 8:54 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 482 of 1482 (828002)
02-07-2018 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 480 by NoNukes
02-07-2018 8:54 AM


Re: Creation
Hi NoNukes,
NoNukes writes:
Hilarious. ICANT, you have zero credibility here. This entire thread is full of instances of you being wrong about assorted topics.
I am going to take that as a complement.
When I post something that a person does not even try to refute but instead attacks me personally I get the idea that I have touched a nerve somewhere. Otherwise they would try to discredit the message rather than the messenger.
Don't get me wrong I appreciate all the instances where I have been wrong and you pointed me to the correct thinking.
You do know that is called the process of learning.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 480 by NoNukes, posted 02-07-2018 8:54 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 483 by NoNukes, posted 02-07-2018 1:15 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied
 Message 486 by ringo, posted 02-07-2018 2:55 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 488 of 1482 (828021)
02-07-2018 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 465 by Phat
02-04-2018 9:33 AM


Re: Why NOT A Literal Bible?
Hi Phat,
Phat writes:
This source differs.
Naturally he would disagree as he does not believe the Bible is the inerrant and infallible Word of God.
Phat writes:
Because much of it makes the science out to be a complete fabrication. Which flies in the face of reality.
How can that be when Science is simply trying to figure out how God did it.
The Bible is reality.
What you understand the Bible teaches is probably what is wrong, not what is actually recorded in the Bible. You have listened to too many YEC'S, and others here.
The Bible in no place teaches that the earth is 6,000+ years old.
That age is determined by doing the math to connect the generations of people who have lived on earth back to the mankind that was created in the image and likeness of God in Genesis 1:27. But that is not the beginning as it took place in Genesis 1:1.
According to Genesis 2:4 the things recorded in the following verses took place in the same day God created the heavens and the earth.
During that light period there were at least 7 generations of people that were descended from the man formed from the dust of the ground and the woman cloned from a rib from the man. There had been at least one city built during that same light period.
How long was that light period? I don't know.
What I do know is that it started at the beginning and did not cease to exist until God created darkness.
quote:
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
That period of light in which the entire universe was lit as our noonday earth would account for the cmbr which it thought to be evidence for the BBT. When all it proves is that the universe was bathed in light in the beginning.
So that is two points that the Bible and Science agrees.
Both teach the universe is old.
Both teach the universe was immersed in light in the beginning.
I also believe that light period in which God's creation took place is where the material was produced and buried in the earth to produce all the natural gas, petroleum, and coal we find in the earth.
Maybe some day somebody in science will give me the scientific mechanism in which the material was produced and buried under 5 miles of sediment in places.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 465 by Phat, posted 02-04-2018 9:33 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 489 by ringo, posted 02-07-2018 3:48 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 490 by jar, posted 02-07-2018 6:50 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 494 of 1482 (828065)
02-09-2018 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 489 by ringo
02-07-2018 3:48 PM


Re: Why NOT A Literal Bible?
Hi ringo,
ringo writes:
How does one conclude that the Bible is the inerrant and infallible word of God?
It helps to know the source in a personal relationship.
Without that it is impossible to understand God's Word.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 489 by ringo, posted 02-07-2018 3:48 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 495 by ringo, posted 02-09-2018 11:24 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 496 of 1482 (828067)
02-09-2018 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 484 by Aussie
02-07-2018 2:02 PM


Re: days and dates
Hi Aussie,
Aussie writes:
I have just lost every shred of intellectual respect I may have had for you. And I've been reading you for years. You are beyond absurd and I feel bad for the ones gullible enough to follow your "Teaching" and take it seriously.
Please explain to me how Moses could have something called nouns when the word 'NOUN' did not exist until about 600 years ago.
If you could go back in time and ask Moses why he put nouns in his sentences what do you think his expression would be?
Do you think he would know what you were talking about?
Who is being silly.
If you want to understand the Word of God you have to quit thinking like a westerner and think like an easterner.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 484 by Aussie, posted 02-07-2018 2:02 PM Aussie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 497 by ringo, posted 02-09-2018 11:43 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 498 by NoNukes, posted 02-09-2018 11:56 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 508 by Aussie, posted 02-09-2018 2:23 PM ICANT has not replied

  
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