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Author Topic:   Creation
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 438 of 1482 (827755)
01-31-2018 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 431 by ICANT
01-30-2018 11:20 PM


Re: Creation
ICANT writes:
ringo writes:
The Bible is not true. We know that.
You have a lot of faith don' you.
Non sequitur.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 431 by ICANT, posted 01-30-2018 11:20 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 439 of 1482 (827756)
01-31-2018 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 432 by ICANT
01-30-2018 11:36 PM


Re: days and dates
ICANT writes:
It seems to me that the man writing about the events of Genesis chapter 1 was above some events looking on what was taking place and at other times standing on the water looking up and eventually on the ground looking up and out
He spent 80 days and nights in the mount with God in which God could have showed him the events as they took place.
Moses didn't write Genesis.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 432 by ICANT, posted 01-30-2018 11:36 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 446 by ICANT, posted 01-31-2018 11:35 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 440 of 1482 (827758)
01-31-2018 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 433 by ICANT
01-31-2018 12:28 AM


Re: days and dates
ICANT writes:
Could you point out the scriptures that support such an assertion as they thought of it as "a solid dome over the earth"?
I did - the word "firmament". According to Wikipedia:
quote:
The word "firmament" is used to translate rāqaʿ (רָקִ֫יעַ‬), a word used in Biblical Hebrew. It is derived from the root raqqəʿ (רָקַע), meaning "to beat or spread out thinly", e.g., the process of making a dish by hammering thin a lump of metal.
ICANT writes:
I do find where those who rendered raki'a by firmamentum regarded it as a solid body. That means it came from the Latin Vulgate which did not exist until the 4th century AD and not from the Hebrew text.
Wikipedia again:
quote:
The word is anglicised from Latin firmamentum, used in the Vulgate (4th century).[5] This in turn is derived from the Latin root firmus, a cognate with "firm".[5] The word is a Latinization of the Greek stereōma, which appears in the Septuagint (c. 200 BC).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 433 by ICANT, posted 01-31-2018 12:28 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 445 by ICANT, posted 01-31-2018 11:31 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 441 of 1482 (827760)
01-31-2018 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 434 by ICANT
01-31-2018 12:49 AM


Re: Creation
ICANT writes:
ringo writes:
We don't have to go beyond page 1 of the Bible to find mistakes.
Produce the evidence to support your assertion.
Plants growing on the third day (Geneis 1:11-13) before the sun was created (Genesis 1:14-19).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 434 by ICANT, posted 01-31-2018 12:49 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 443 by ICANT, posted 01-31-2018 9:01 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 447 of 1482 (827787)
02-01-2018 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 443 by ICANT
01-31-2018 9:01 PM


Re: Creation
ICANT writes:
Since the Universe existed complete at the end of verse 1....
That isn't what it says.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 443 by ICANT, posted 01-31-2018 9:01 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 453 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2018 1:52 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 448 of 1482 (827789)
02-01-2018 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 445 by ICANT
01-31-2018 11:31 PM


Re: days and dates
ICANT writes:
First thing is that Wikipedia is not an authority on Biblical Hebrew.
And neither are you.
ICANT writes:
Never the less it does tell you where the domed earth belief came from. It states plainly that it came from the Latin Vulgate which is not the Hebrew text.
It says that it came from the Septuagint, which is the closest thing to the "original" Hebrew text that we have.
ICANT writes:
I like Gods definition of raki'a better than that of any man or woman.
quote:
Genesis 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
You're thinking backwards. You're projecting the modern concept of "space" backwards onto the word "heaven".
ICANT writes:
So God called the expanse which is one of the definitions of raki'a, heaven which is the sky, even to where the stars are and including them.
Yes, the stars were seen as lamps attached to the firmament (ceiling). There's no reason to think there was any appreciable thickness to the firmament.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 445 by ICANT, posted 01-31-2018 11:31 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 450 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2018 12:15 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 449 of 1482 (827790)
02-01-2018 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 446 by ICANT
01-31-2018 11:35 PM


Re: days and dates
ICANT writes:
ringo writes:
Moses didn't write Genesis.
And you know that because________________
The idea that Genesis was written by Moses is just a tradition.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 446 by ICANT, posted 01-31-2018 11:35 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 451 of 1482 (827799)
02-01-2018 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 450 by ICANT
02-01-2018 12:15 PM


Re: days and dates
ICANT writes:
My Bible Language degrees and further studies would disagree with you.
Any goober can get a degree. What you post on EvC suggests that you don't know what you're talking about. You don't even seem to understand the difference in English between all of the water being in one place and all of the land being in one place.
ICANT writes:
But the nearest stars to Earth are in the Alpha Centauri triple-star system, about 4.37 light years away.
The star Deneb is the farthest star that can be easily seen with the naked eye. It is thought to be between 1,400 and 3,000 light years from Earth.
So if those are attached to the ceiling as the ancient Greeks believed they are a long way from the earth and therefore a roof over planet earth is nonsense.
Which indicates that the Bible is wrong about the sky being "firm". You can jump through hoops to convince yourself that the Bible authors "must have known" but you'll have trouble dragging other people through the hoops with you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 450 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2018 12:15 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 456 of 1482 (827843)
02-02-2018 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 453 by ICANT
02-01-2018 1:52 PM


Re: Creation
ICANT writes:
ringo writes:
Since the Universe existed complete at the end of verse 1....
ICANT writes:
That isn't what it says.
On what authority do you make that assertion?
Context. Genesis 1:2 says:
quote:
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
If the creation was not complete in verse 2, how could it be "completed" in verse 1?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 453 by ICANT, posted 02-01-2018 1:52 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 457 by ICANT, posted 02-02-2018 3:32 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 460 of 1482 (827876)
02-03-2018 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 457 by ICANT
02-02-2018 3:32 PM


Re: Creation
ICANT writes:
It does seem like it was in a mess at this particular time but it was not created in that condition in Genesis 1:1.
quote:
45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
Your reference from Isaiah doesn't support your claim that the creation was complete in Genesis 1:1. It's just a general reference to the whole creation.
ICANT writes:
Jeremiah saw the earth in the condition it is described as being in Genesis 1:1.
quote:
Jeremiah 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
Again, Jeremiah was not distinguishing between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2.
ICANT writes:
There is no other time in earth's history that would fit Jeremiah's description as there were humans, animals and birds after the flood of Noah.
He wasn't talking about a time in earth's history - i.e. he wasn't talking about Genesis at all. Look at Jeremiah 4;27-29:
quote:
For thus hath the Lord said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black; because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it. The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein.
He was talking about a future time when Israel would be destroyed if it didn't obey God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 457 by ICANT, posted 02-02-2018 3:32 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 463 by ICANT, posted 02-03-2018 9:51 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 466 of 1482 (827896)
02-04-2018 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 463 by ICANT
02-03-2018 9:51 PM


Re: Creation
ICANT writes:
Verse 2 does not say it was created without form. It does say 'now the earth existed' without form and void.
Verse one says it was created and verse 2 says it was without form. Thus, it was not complete in verse 1 because the form was yet to be determined.
ICANT writes:
Now if Jeremiah was not talking about the condition of the earth in Genesis 1:2, when was the earth in that condition that he could observe?
As I said, Jeremiah 4:28-29 says that it in the future the city would be attacked by horsemen and bowmen. Jeremiah was a prophet, after all, not a historian.
ICANT writes:
But that is what you did when you went through the stop sign at the end of verse 26.
There is no stop sign.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 463 by ICANT, posted 02-03-2018 9:51 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 471 by ICANT, posted 02-04-2018 4:33 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 473 of 1482 (827914)
02-05-2018 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 471 by ICANT
02-04-2018 4:33 PM


Re: Creation
ICANT writes:
The Hebrew Bible was not divided into chapters and verses until 1571. Prior to that and from the Sinai there were parshiyos. which was a space in the text which was stop signs.
A parashah is similar to a paragraph break. It can be used to indicate the end of one story and the start of another but sometimes it's just a dramatic pause.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 471 by ICANT, posted 02-04-2018 4:33 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 476 by ICANT, posted 02-06-2018 2:54 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 485 of 1482 (828018)
02-07-2018 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 476 by ICANT
02-06-2018 2:54 PM


Re: Creation
ICANT writes:
The spaces in the picture of the Dead Sea Scrolls was not invented by the Masoretes, as it was text that had no vowels, accents, or punctuation.
You're missing the point. The point is that you've given no reason to conclude that the space indicates a change in point of view. It can but it doesn't have to. Jeremiah is clearly telling one story about one event, in the future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 476 by ICANT, posted 02-06-2018 2:54 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 486 of 1482 (828019)
02-07-2018 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 482 by ICANT
02-07-2018 11:40 AM


Re: Creation
ICANT writes:
Otherwise they would try to discredit the message rather than the messenger.
You have it backwards. The messenger (you) has no credibility because his messages have been discredited so often in the past. You're like the boy who cried, "Wolf!"
It's unfortunate, because if there ever is a wolf - i.e if you ever do say anything that's true - we're unlikely to believe it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 482 by ICANT, posted 02-07-2018 11:40 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 489 of 1482 (828022)
02-07-2018 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 488 by ICANT
02-07-2018 3:42 PM


Re: Why NOT A Literal Bible?
ICANT writes:
Naturally he would disagree as he does not believe the Bible is the inerrant and infallible Word of God.
How does one conclude that the Bible is the inerrant and infallible word of God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 488 by ICANT, posted 02-07-2018 3:42 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 494 by ICANT, posted 02-09-2018 11:19 AM ringo has replied

  
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