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Author Topic:   The "science" of Miracles
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 479 of 696 (827967)
02-06-2018 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 469 by ringo
02-06-2018 10:38 AM


Re: Consensus
ringo writes:
When have they ever found no explanations?
As you know, we're playing the what if game, if you don't want to, just say so.
It's not an assumption. It's an observation.
How can it be an observation, no miracles have yet been detected?
It's what scientists do. They propose explanations.
But what if they can't?
Care to give any examples where scientists were completely stumped and could propose no explanations at all?
What is it with you and this stubborn circular, repetitive stuff? We agreed about a thousand posts ago that so far no miracles have been found. We're now playing what if, or some of us are.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 469 by ringo, posted 02-06-2018 10:38 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 482 by ringo, posted 02-07-2018 2:40 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 487 of 696 (828028)
02-07-2018 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 482 by ringo
02-07-2018 2:40 PM


Re: Consensus
ringo writes:
I've already said it's a stupid game. That's my move. If you don't like it, throw the game board on the floor and run away.
Ok. 'bye for now.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 482 by ringo, posted 02-07-2018 2:40 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 499 of 696 (828093)
02-09-2018 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 498 by Taq
02-09-2018 5:22 PM


Re: Bridge Analogy Re-examined
Agnostics don't exist. You either believe in god(s) or you don't. If you don't know whether you believe in god(s) or not, you don't believe in god(s).
Neither atheists nor agnostics nor deists nor theists have knowledge of god(s). If anyone had knowledge of god(s) we'd all have knowledge of god(s). If such knowledge existed it would be published in Nature and peer reviewed to death.
All we have is knowledge of what we believe.
Agnosticism is an invented cop-out to avoid a social and intellectual problems.
/off rant.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 498 by Taq, posted 02-09-2018 5:22 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 501 by Phat, posted 02-09-2018 7:05 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 525 by 1.61803, posted 02-12-2018 4:29 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 540 by Taq, posted 02-14-2018 4:30 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 505 of 696 (828123)
02-10-2018 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 503 by Percy
02-10-2018 1:58 PM


Re: Consensus
Percy writes:
Hume is arguing that past experience is proof that miracles can't exist.
Hume is just doing what ringo is doing - defining away the argument. Like ringo, he's refusing the what if. It's only when you allow the what if that you can make any form of progress. If you disallow the concept there's nothing more to say.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 503 by Percy, posted 02-10-2018 1:58 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 516 by ringo, posted 02-11-2018 1:34 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 507 of 696 (828125)
02-10-2018 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 506 by Faith
02-10-2018 6:54 PM


Faith writes:
The Creator of the natural laws could certainly suspend them if He wanted to.
Well that's certainly what believers in that sort of magic believe.
The problem is that if this god thing ever did suspend natural laws we'd have evidence if it. But of course he never does so he's not playing or he doesn't exist.
The other problem is that believers like you tell us that he suspends natural laws all the time. But strangely there's never any real world evidence of it. I'd say that's conclusive.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 506 by Faith, posted 02-10-2018 6:54 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 508 by Faith, posted 02-10-2018 8:11 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 509 of 696 (828132)
02-11-2018 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 508 by Faith
02-10-2018 8:11 PM


Faith writes:
Or of course believe those who were and try to tell you about it in the teeth of your refusal to believe, which you won't no matter what they say, as this thread amply demonstrates.
That's correct, I'm not going to believe anything a believer says without evidence. Your primitive believes have been shown to be wrong time and time again.
The Bible gives plenty of witnesses to miracles but you rationalize them all away.
I would rationalise them away if their was anything rational about them. The bible is only evidence that someone - we don't even know who or even when - wrote down some stories. Nothing else.
You want "scientific" evidence of something that simply by its nature can't exist.
Anything that happens in the natural world leaves evidence. You've spent fruitless years trying to tell us that with your flood nonsense.
The argument is ridiculously futile. I believe the Bible witnesses, you don't and really, that's all there is to it.
Yup, but here you are again being futile.
So, no, we would NOT have evidence of a miracle if it occurred.
Of course it would, anything that interferes with the natural world must, by definition, leave evidence - for example a faith healer would leave someone who was ill not ill. But they never ever do anything conclusive. Why not? Answer: because they can't.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 508 by Faith, posted 02-10-2018 8:11 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 527 of 696 (828173)
02-12-2018 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 525 by 1.61803
02-12-2018 4:29 PM


Re: Bridge Analogy Re-examined
1.6etc writes:
Hilarious... Atheist now being dogmatic about the non existence of agnostics.
Yeh, hilarious but never-the-less correct.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 525 by 1.61803, posted 02-12-2018 4:29 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 528 by 1.61803, posted 02-12-2018 5:06 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 529 of 696 (828177)
02-12-2018 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 528 by 1.61803
02-12-2018 5:06 PM


Re: Bridge Analogy Re-examined
So at each of those time you're either a believer in god(s) or you're not. And when you say you're agnostic you also don't believe - if you don't know whether you believe, you don't believe. It's quite simple.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 528 by 1.61803, posted 02-12-2018 5:06 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 530 by 1.61803, posted 02-13-2018 10:23 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 535 of 696 (828210)
02-13-2018 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 530 by 1.61803
02-13-2018 10:23 AM


Re: Bridge Analogy Re-examined
1.6etc writes:
If I do not know that any gods exist I am agnostic.
No-one knows whether god exists or not.
They can only believe it does or believe it doesn't.
Some people believe god exists. They're theists.
Some people believe god doesn't exist. Those people are atheists.
Those people that say they don't know if they believe in a god, can't possibly believe in a god. Belief is active.
It really is quite simple.
When you don't make the mistake of confusing knowledge and belief, yes it is.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 530 by 1.61803, posted 02-13-2018 10:23 AM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 536 by 1.61803, posted 02-14-2018 12:49 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 538 of 696 (828228)
02-14-2018 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 536 by 1.61803
02-14-2018 12:49 PM


Re: Bridge Analogy Re-examined
1.6etc writes:
The word "agnostic" comes from Greek roots meaning "without knowledge."
Yikes, who knew?!
And when you make the mistake of changing the definition of agnostic to suit your argument your are guilty of a fallicous argument called the definist fallacy.
I'm not changing the definition of agnostic. I had hoped that was clear. I'm ignoring the word altogether as it's a Victorian invention that has no practical value. It was created as a socially acceptable excuse for non-belief.
Since the word agnostic means without knowledge and not without belief I will go with what the word means and not what Tangle thinks it means, thank you very much.
Concentrate. Agnostic means without knowledge.
My claim is that no-one has knowledge of god. What people do have is knowledge of whether they believe in a god or not.
Believe is active, you either have it or you do not. Therefore those that say they don't know whether they believe or not, do not believe.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 536 by 1.61803, posted 02-14-2018 12:49 PM 1.61803 has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 541 of 696 (828234)
02-14-2018 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 540 by Taq
02-14-2018 4:30 PM


Re: Bridge Analogy Re-examined
Taq writes:
Christian agnostics would beg to differ.
All sorts of people beg to differ.
They do it for the same reason that those that invented the term agnostic did it in the first place - because they're uncomfortable accepting that they no longer believe in the religion they were born into.
Agnosticism is not a real thing. It's a total invention. People believe or they do not.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 540 by Taq, posted 02-14-2018 4:30 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 542 by Taq, posted 02-14-2018 5:55 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 545 by Percy, posted 02-14-2018 7:43 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 546 of 696 (828250)
02-15-2018 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 542 by Taq
02-14-2018 5:55 PM


Re: Bridge Analogy Re-examined
Taq writes:
Belief is described by atheism/theism.
Agreed
A/gnostic is about the ability to gain knowledge.
And as no-one can have knowledge of god, it's a useless term.
All people can have knowedge of is whether they believe in a god or not. If they don't know whether they believe or not they don't believe.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 542 by Taq, posted 02-14-2018 5:55 PM Taq has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 673 of 696 (843528)
11-19-2018 4:05 AM
Reply to: Message 672 by Arkangel Daniel
11-19-2018 3:58 AM


Are we in the bonkers olympics or something?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 672 by Arkangel Daniel, posted 11-19-2018 3:58 AM Arkangel Daniel has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 681 of 696 (843671)
11-20-2018 3:20 AM


I suppose it's good that our hospitals have internet access but I don't see why should have to suffer for it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

Replies to this message:
 Message 683 by Arkangel Daniel, posted 11-20-2018 4:11 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 687 of 696 (843744)
11-20-2018 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 686 by Tanypteryx
11-20-2018 3:06 PM


Boatymacboatfaceangel. Gottabe.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 686 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-20-2018 3:06 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 688 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-20-2018 4:04 PM Tangle has not replied

  
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