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Author Topic:   Evangelical Support Group
Phat
Member
Posts: 10970
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 211 of 244 (828199)
02-13-2018 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by ringo
04-30-2007 4:54 PM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
ringo writes:

What if "the enemy" itself is just a figment of your imagination?

What if those of us without tinfoil hats are not being lied to?

Do you think God is so needy that He needs you to need Him?

No, I believe that we are the ones who are needy. God is gracious enough to put up with us. You may have a narrower brush than does the Soviet Union, but I'm not so sure....

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by ringo, posted 04-30-2007 4:54 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by Stile, posted 02-13-2018 1:24 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 221 by ringo, posted 02-14-2018 2:52 PM Phat has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3223
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 212 of 244 (828203)
02-13-2018 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by Phat
02-13-2018 12:39 PM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
Phat writes:

No, I believe that we are the ones who are needy. God is gracious enough to put up with us.

Perhaps God is so incredible that He is there for all of those who need them, and doesn't get in the way for those who don't.

On the other hand...

Perhaps the universe is so incredible that God exists for those who need Him (faith, belief, imagination...), and God does not exist for those who don't.

To each their own?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Phat, posted 02-13-2018 12:39 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30707
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 213 of 244 (828211)
02-13-2018 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Phat
08-18-2015 1:53 AM


Re: Responsibility vs The Easy Path
Phat writes:

Chambers describes it thus:

quote:
Have you been asking God what He is going to do? He will never tell you. God does not tell you what He is going to do He reveals to you who He is. Do you believe in a miracle-working God, and will you go out in complete surrender to Him until you are not surprised one iota by anything He does?

I can understand the first two sentences. Then it all is just word salad with absolutely no meaning.

"God does not tell you what He is going to do ... " Agreed! God does not tell you what She is going to do.

"... He reveals to you who He is." Nonsense. How does God reveal who He is and why are there so many different and mutually exclusive contradictory revelations of who It is?

Why is the God revealed in Genesis 1 entirely different than the God revealed in Genesis 2&3 or the God revealed in Exodus?

Phat writes:

Perhaps you feel and believe that doing your best every day is as close as you can get to communion. Your analytical mind has never understood communion and I for one dont understand it enough to explain it to you. I am still learning Who He Is.

But nothing in the balance of that post has anything to do with communion or provide anything other than confirmation of bias.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Phat, posted 08-18-2015 1:53 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Phat, posted 02-13-2018 6:02 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10970
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 214 of 244 (828213)
02-13-2018 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by jar
02-13-2018 4:23 PM


Re: Responsibility vs The Easy Path
Stile writes:

Perhaps God is so incredible that He is there for all of those who need them, and doesn't get in the way for those who don't.
On the other hand...

That's what is so great about our discussions. There is always another hand....

jar writes:

"... He reveals to you who He is." Nonsense. How does God reveal who He is and why are there so many different and mutually exclusive contradictory revelations of who It is?

Though I agree with your assessment of the fact that there are always many different and mutually exclusive and contradictory revelations or descriptions of God, i would also argue that there are many similar descriptions. From my own personal experience, I can usually intuitively discern who has actually spent a lot of time praying and questioning God rather than simply parroting what the evangelical industrial complex touts as the party line. You often ask me how I know it is God and not simply a bad burrito. My answer is that strictly speaking, I wouldnt have any concrete evidence apart from the fact that if it were a bad burrito, many people would have suffered similar food poisoning regarding their descriptions, actions, and explanations regarding the God whom they market.

Stile writes:

Perhaps the universe is so incredible that God exists for those who need Him (faith, belief, imagination...), and God does not exist for those who don't.

I agree that this scenario could certainly be possible. I believe that God is willing to commune with those who seek communion through prayer, meditation, or even daily action...but as to why God is willing, I can only say that I believe it is Gods nature to offer assistance, comfort, and encouragement.

I think it is logical that God would simply leave those who prefer to be left alone to themselves...though I believe that everyone encounters God at some point ...perhaps for some after death. Perhaps for some of us, we only encounter God through other humans and are judged based on our interactions, motives, and actions. In my previous video, I show Costi Hinn being interviewed by Chris Rosebrough. One cannot simply label every TV, Radio, or online Pastor as a joke. Judge them by their fruits. Someone once said that Hollywood is like a bowl of cereal...full of fruits, nuts, and flakes! So too with evangelical Christianity, but there are some...a minority to be sure....who have sound and/or supportable doctrine.

Finally a question for all of us to ponder: What Have I Done Today?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by jar, posted 02-13-2018 4:23 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by jar, posted 02-13-2018 6:29 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30707
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 215 of 244 (828214)
02-13-2018 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by Phat
02-13-2018 6:02 PM


Re: Responsibility vs The Easy Path
Phat writes:

Though I agree with your assessment of the fact that there are always many different and mutually exclusive and contradictory revelations or descriptions of God, i would also argue that there are many similar descriptions. From my own personal experience, I can usually intuitively discern who has actually spent a lot of time praying and questioning God rather than simply parroting what the evangelical industrial complex touts as the party line. You often ask me how I know it is God and not simply a bad burrito. My answer is that strictly speaking, I wouldnt have any concrete evidence apart from the fact that if it were a bad burrito, many people would have suffered similar food poisoning regarding their descriptions, actions, and explanations regarding the God whom they market.

All of the evidence shows that many people would have suffered similar food poisoning regarding their descriptions, actions, and explanations regarding the God whom they market.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Phat, posted 02-13-2018 6:02 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by Phat, posted 02-13-2018 7:53 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10970
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 216 of 244 (828216)
02-13-2018 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by jar
02-13-2018 6:29 PM


Discernment Ministry
jar writes:

All of the evidence shows that many people would have suffered similar food poisoning regarding their descriptions, actions, and explanations regarding the God whom they market.

Which brings up Mob Mentality of a large group.

quote:
When people are part of a group, they often experience deindividuation, or a loss of self-awareness. When people deindividuate, they are less likely to follow normal restraints and inhibitions and more likely to lose their sense of individual identity. Groups can generate a sense of emotional excitement, which can lead to the provocation of behaviors that a person would not typically engage in if alone. Think about the last sporting event or concert you attended. Its unlikely that you would have been yelling or singing the way you were if you were the only person doing it! The group seems to make some behaviors acceptable that would not be acceptable otherwise.(...)The greater individuals feel like they identify with a group, the greater the pressures for them to conform and deindividuate become. (...)Certain situations also play a role, such as when resources are scarce, we are surrounded by like-minded people, and/or when emotions are aroused.
This would explain how many members of the CCOI learn their behavior and beliefs through group dynamics rather than individual critical thought and scholarship.

When the Bible is quoted, apart from Sunday school classes or Bible Studies...and even in those sometimes...the meaning is generally conveyed as a given consensus.

As I commented before, however, not all teachers are void of sound instruction and support behind their views and beliefs. The Discernment Ministry of conservative Lutheran Chris Rosebrough is based on solid Lutheran theology.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by jar, posted 02-13-2018 6:29 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by jar, posted 02-13-2018 8:06 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30707
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 217 of 244 (828217)
02-13-2018 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by Phat
02-13-2018 7:53 PM


Re: Discernment Ministry
Sorry but the The Discernment Ministry is nothing but a "Not My Cult" cult.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Phat, posted 02-13-2018 7:53 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by Phat, posted 02-14-2018 10:38 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10970
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 218 of 244 (828222)
02-14-2018 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by jar
02-13-2018 8:06 PM


Re: Discernment Ministry
Did you even read the link or know who Chris Rosebrough is? Or as usual, just repeating your own pet assertions about US Christian religion in general?

The Discernment Ministry is nothing but a "Not My Cult" cult.
So even if I proved to you that Chris was mainstream Lutheran, you would assert that Lutheranism is a Not My Club Club? Granted Lutheranism is not the same as Episcopalianism, but tio label it a cult is simply advertising your own tendency to lump much of US mainstream Christianity into a "cult of ignorance" while at the same time repeating your own belief.

Edited by Phat, : added point

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by jar, posted 02-13-2018 8:06 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by jar, posted 02-14-2018 12:42 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 220 by dwise1, posted 02-14-2018 2:16 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30707
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 219 of 244 (828223)
02-14-2018 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Phat
02-14-2018 10:38 AM


Re: Discernment Ministry
Yes, I followed your link and also have watched the advent of Discernment Ministries over time. It is simply more apologetics, evangelical fundamentalist and yes, part of the Christian Cult of Ignorance. What you need to ask is whether or not the same mob psychology is not also the core of "solid fillintheblank thology".

The issue is the position that all other positions are wrong but my "fillintheblank" position is right.

Humans create religions. They are totally human.

They may be valid as a path but that depends on the one doing the journey. Other folk may well follow some other equally valid path.

The problem is not whether some path follows fillintheblank theology but whether the path leads to anything worthwhile or to damage and destruction. Does the path make life better for the least of these.

Look at the basic definition of what makes a cult to the followers of Discernment Ministries.

quote:
By cultism we mean the adherence to doctrines which are pointedly contradictory to orthodox Christianity and which yet claim the distinction of either tracing their origin to orthodox sources or of being in essential harmony with those sources. Cultism, in short, is any major deviation from orthodox Christianity relative to the cardinal doctrines of the Christian faith.

Look at it. Look closely at it.

Where is the emphasis; on dogma or doing?

GOATS!


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Phat, posted 02-14-2018 10:38 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 3162
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 220 of 244 (828226)
02-14-2018 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Phat
02-14-2018 10:38 AM


Re: Discernment Ministry
With all due respect.

That link was not to that movement's page in which said Chris Rosebrough and/or his group could present their position and aims, but rather to a Wikipedia article, Christian countercult movement, speaking generally of several different denominations trying to oppose those denominations that they consider to be cults; from that article:

quote:
The Christian countercult movement or Christian anti-cult movement is a social movement of certain Protestant evangelical and fundamentalist and other Christian ministries ("discernment ministries") and individual activists who oppose religious sects they consider "cults".

Always a science fiction fan, back in college (early 1970's, though I'm back again in retirement) I would also indulge in religious sci-fi. I have also long appreciated irony, though the sources of irony are too often too horrific (eg, just about anything that the Religious Right (which kisses up to the AntiChrist), the Trump Administration, and the Republican Party do) to allow me to say that I enjoy irony. About a decade ago I read Only Begotten Daughter in which Satan takes Julie into Hell to meet and speak with Jesus. It turns out that everybody except for four people (Julie Katz' father being one) have ended up in Hell. The reason for that is that for every group, religious or otherwise, there was a religious group who believed that first group would go to Hell. So every single group all got their wishes and everybody went to Hell.

Back around 1970, I was something of a fellow traveler of the Jesus Freak Movement and I am still sympathetic to individual believers even though I am highly critical of their theology. That was the genesis of the modern fundamentalist/evangelical mega-churches and the source of political power for the American conservative/evangelical/fundamentalist movement (which CTCS Malcolm Nance ties in with the international conservative network of "nationalist" groups that are on Putin's payroll).

And then there's one de-conversion story that really stuck with me. A boy raised strongly Baptist goes to college and finds a girlfriend that he really cares about. Well, she's Catholic, so he's really troubled that this girl that he cares so much for is going to Hell because she's not Baptist. Then one day she breaks down in tears and as he tries to console her she sobs out that it's because she's so worried for him going to Hell because he's not a Catholic. That was his wake-up call. He went straight to the college library and asked for a complete history of Christianity. The librarian tried to dissuade him, but he was insistent. He read the entire extremely thick book in less than a month, after which he had concluded that even if there were a God, He sure as Hell wasn't Christian.

Oh, yes. The irony. Many of the tell-tale signs of a cult are also exhibited by some (or many) of the sects who run these discernment ministries. You are to only associate with fellow believers, except for the purpose of converting others. If the source of the information isn't your own religion, then ignore it. The unequal yoke: do not get into a relationship with a non-believer (which includes all denominations and sects outside your own). Though using seduction to deceive someone into converting, a frequent cult trick which can also be used to keep the victim entrapped within the cult, is allowed and undoubtedly encouraged (in 1970, the proselytizing training materials were still somewhat crude and hadn't yet progressed to sexual entrapment). On-line, many creationists have tried to become personal friends in their efforts to convert me, proclaiming great interest until it becomes clear that they cannot possibly convert me whereupon they abruptly lose all interest.

An old friend from college had a similar story with some weird twists (for me). When my brother-in-law became a fundamentalist and married another fundamentalist, Pat, it turned out to be that "Jesus Freak chick" in my French classes. In that second-year class, we had a pen-pal program with French students. She was so Jesus-Freak that her pen-pal never replied to her. I met that french-class friend, Lisa, over a decade later at an atheist lunch. She described to me her "friendship" with Pat. Pat was best friends with Lisa so long as it seemed to her that she could convert Lisa. As soon as Lisa had made it clear that she could never convert, Pat would have nothing more to do with Lisa.

Which coincidentally was the exact-same reaction I got from so many creationists.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Phat, posted 02-14-2018 10:38 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 14910
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 221 of 244 (828231)
02-14-2018 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by Phat
02-13-2018 12:39 PM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

Do you think God is so needy that He needs you to need Him?


No, I believe that we are the ones who are needy.

That doesn't answer the question. Nobody denies that humans are needy. The question is: Does God need us to be needy? Does God need us to need Him? You make Him sound like an elderly parent whose children don't call any more.

If we can solve our own problems without consulting Him, is that a problem for Him?


An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Phat, posted 02-13-2018 12:39 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by Phat, posted 02-17-2018 1:16 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10970
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 222 of 244 (828415)
02-17-2018 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by ringo
02-14-2018 2:52 PM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
ringo writes:

Does God need us to need Him? You make Him sound like an elderly parent whose children don't call anymore.

In a sense, I *do* see God that way. I figure that He foreknows our destiny and does not see a promising outcome.

I believe that He desires that we stay alive and not become extinct.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by ringo, posted 02-14-2018 2:52 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Tangle, posted 02-17-2018 3:15 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 227 by ringo, posted 02-20-2018 11:36 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5969
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 223 of 244 (828421)
02-17-2018 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Phat
02-17-2018 1:16 PM


Re: Human attempts to understand God
Phat writes:

I figure that He foreknows our destiny and does not see a promising outcome.
I believe that He desires that we stay alive and not become extinct.

But you know that you're just making all this up don't you? It's quite obviously just wishful thinking.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Phat, posted 02-17-2018 1:16 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
AlexCaledin
Member (Idle past 61 days)
Posts: 41
From: Samara, Russia
Joined: 10-22-2016


(1)
Message 224 of 244 (828481)
02-19-2018 12:00 PM


LOL imagine discussing romantic affairs with castrates . . .
Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by Phat, posted 02-20-2018 3:28 AM AlexCaledin has not yet responded
 Message 228 by ringo, posted 02-20-2018 11:37 AM AlexCaledin has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10970
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 225 of 244 (828491)
02-20-2018 3:28 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by AlexCaledin
02-19-2018 12:00 PM


Castrates
They don't think that there is any difference between believers and nonbelievers and there is really no way to prove that there is.....

I know where you are coming from, however.

1 Corinthians 3:18-19 writes:

1 Cor 3:18-19

18 Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a "fool" so that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by AlexCaledin, posted 02-19-2018 12:00 PM AlexCaledin has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by jar, posted 02-20-2018 6:43 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
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