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Author Topic:   The Trump Presidency
Percy
Member
Posts: 17143
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1876 of 2036 (828218)
02-13-2018 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1875 by Rrhain
02-13-2018 7:42 PM


Re: The Irony of Trump's Obstruction of Justice
Rrhain writes:

quote:
quote:
Again, US conspiracy law does not require the parties know about each other. That's why you buying stolen goods puts you on the hook, even if you don't know that the goods were stolen.

Again, not a legal expert here, but just Googling this says they have to show you knew the goods were stolen in order to support a charge of conspiracy.
...
So when the Russians come to Trump specifically saying they have information about the Democrats and his representative in Trump, Jr. says that this is wonderful, how is that not illegal since it would be a violation of FEC regulations to take anything of value from them? And thus, conspiracy.

Yep. I was just commenting on the part of the analogy about not knowing the goods were stolen.

quote:
quote:
We only conspired for a moment?

I was only making the point that Carter Page didn't have much time to get a conspiracy going, but if did manage to engage in a conspiracy with Russia in the short time he was with the Trump campaign then you're of course right that this is more trouble for Trump.

Again, we only conspired for a moment?

Again, I was only saying that Carter Page didn't have much time to get a conspiracy started. Otherwise I agreed with you. I refer you to where I said, "You're of course right...etc..."

You're also right that Carter Page was a member of the Trump campaign for a number of months. Trying to remember where I got the information that it was just a month, I think it came out of the White House. When will I learn that if their lips are moving they're lying. Boy, it must have been a sight to see Sanders struggle through today's press conference about Rob Porter. She won't admit it to the press core, but inside she knows she was lied to by multiple people multiple times.

quote:
Of course this brings us back to the question of why Trump is so favorably biased toward Russia. We need some hard evidence there.

...Even if we can't directly prove the money laundering aspect,...

Yeah, that's what I mean, we need some hard evidence.

quote:
I was unable to verify that Trump "started crowing about the sanctions" immediately after the Trump Jr. meeting, but Trump of course started working on reducing the Russia sanctions after taking office.

You don't recall Trump talking about being friendly with the Russians? How that was distinguishing him from Clinton? How he can make a deal and she can't?

Yep, I remember all that. I was just unable to verify that Trump "started crowing about the sanctions" immediately after the Trump Jr. meeting.

quote:
I agree that Trump's favorable treatment of Russia and Putin is highly suspicious, but it seems very weak evidence. It feels like more direct evidence is needed.

Why? What is it you need? A videotape of Trump and Putin directly saying they will work together to get Trump elected?

Sure, that would do, though I wouldn't hold my breath that one will turn up, and who videotapes anything anymore?
I'm just saying better evidence is needed than Trump treating Russia favorably regarding things like sanctions.

quote:
I don't doubt the existence of Russian spying efforts on all facets of our government, especially the significant ones like State, but as far as we know Russian efforts to hack into Clinton emails were not successful.

You don't have to be successful in order to engage in conspiracy.

Sure, but how do you prove a connection between a comment in a campaign speech and something the Russians always do anyway?

quote:
I can see Mueller using things said during campaign speeches as supporting evidence for other charges, but not as crimes themselves.

The things said are part of the conspiracy which is part of the crime. You're trying to have it both ways, saying you need evidence that they said something while disallowing things that were said. Again, it seems that the only thing that will satisfy you is a videotape of Putin and Trump charting out every step of the way.

I'm not thinking about what it would take to convince me but what it would take to convince the DOJ or the House.

quote:
When you said Trump's been in debt to Russians for many, many years I thought you meant that in the sense of debt he can't repay, thus giving Russians leverage over him.

He owes $130M to DB which is involved in Russian money laundering.

Again, I thought you were talking about debt that would give Russians leverage over Trump. This doesn't do that.

And even if he owed nothing materially, he's still "in debt" to them given how they rescued him from bankruptcy. And now he's in a position to return the favor.

Seems pretty weak as evidence.

And we haven't even gotten into the dossier...

Only some of which is verified.

quote:
What we know so far mostly involves Deutsche Bank, not Russian banks or oligarchs.

What more do you need? Again, you seem to be only willing to consider it if we had a videotape of Trump taking a briefcase stuffed with cash from Anton Vayno.

Again, I'm not thinking about what it would take to convince me. I'm thinking about what it would take to convince the DOJ or the House.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1875 by Rrhain, posted 02-13-2018 7:42 PM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 2016 by Rrhain, posted 04-24-2018 10:43 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10577
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1877 of 2036 (828219)
02-14-2018 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1875 by Rrhain
02-13-2018 7:42 PM


Re: The Irony of Trump's Obstruction of Justice
Again, we only conspired for a moment?

Hopefully, this will clear up something in your discussion.

Let's postulate that a group of people get together to form a criminal act. In colloquial terms we might call that a conspiracy, but let me describe the legal fine points here.

When the folks gather together and plan the criminal act they are conspiring. In order to be convicted of the crime of the conspiracy, one of the conspirators must do an overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy. Something like buying burglary tools or a bugging device would suffice. Even legal acts, like withdrawing money from the bank to finance the crime, even if the money never gets used is enough. Even if the actual crime fails or is frustrated, you can still be convicted of a conspiracy.

However, there must be an underlying crime. Just saying that Russians were part of the plan does not mean diddly squat absent some reason why such participation was illegal.

Okay, next let's say that some of the folks in the conspiracy go to the next step of trying to bug a DNC computer to gather dirt and intelligence. Whether or not the plot succeeds, the conspirators are guilty of an attempt at whatever the actual crime was. But something more than the niggling act that suffices for conspiracy is necessary. You cannot just buy a map to DNC headquarters to be guilty of attempt. Someone would actually have to hammer at the door or try to pick a lock or something similar.

Finally, let's assume that the entire planned crime gets carried out. In that case, all of the conspirators can be charged with the underlying crime.

In short, conspiracy is getting together to plan something, the attempt is just trying to carry out the plan, and then there is the actual crime itself. If the crime is a felony, then separately, attempt and conspiracy are also felonies. Unless there are specific statutes saying otherwise, the state can pursue charges for any of those things at approximately the same severity as if the crime fully was committed.

As a result, most prosecutors just go with charging conspiracy because the level of effort on the state's part is usually substantially less than that required to prove that all elements of the actual crime were carried out. That is particularly the case if some conspirators were not even participants in the breaking and entering, tampering or whatever.

In your discussion, you seem to be simply using conspiracy to represent the whole enterprise. That is simply not the case legally.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1875 by Rrhain, posted 02-13-2018 7:42 PM Rrhain has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10577
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1878 of 2036 (828220)
02-14-2018 1:42 AM


Trump's lawyer paid Stormy Daniels
https://www.cnn.com/...hen-stormy-daniels-payment/index.html

In what would seem to be a bizarre turn of events even on this day full of news, Trump's personal lawyer, Michael Cohen says that he paid Stormy Daniels $130,000 using his (Cohen's) own money, and that there is no connection to Trump.

Regarding why he might have done so Cohen said the following:

quote:
When asked why he made the payment, Cohen told CNN: "Just because something isn't true doesn't mean that it can't cause you harm or damage. I will always protect Mr. Trump."

Not sure what to make off this report, but Cohen would not answer questions that would help clear things up, like whether Trump was aware of the payment, or why in the heck he used his own money.

On its face, Cohen's story would seem to make very little sense.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30315
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 1879 of 2036 (828221)
02-14-2018 7:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1878 by NoNukes
02-14-2018 1:42 AM


Re: Trump's lawyer paid Stormy Daniels
NoNukes writes:

Not sure what to make off this report, but Cohen would not answer questions that would help clear things up, like whether Trump was aware of the payment, or why in the heck he used his own money.

On its face, Cohen's story would seem to make very little sense.

quote:
Michael Dean Cohen is an American attorney who works as a lawyer and spokesperson for U.S. President Donald Trump. Prior to this appointment he was Executive Vice-President of the Trump Organization and special counsel to Trump.

Perhaps it makes sense if the goal is preventing additional reasons to look into the Trump Inc finances.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1878 by NoNukes, posted 02-14-2018 1:42 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 17143
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 1880 of 2036 (828225)
02-14-2018 12:54 PM


The 10 Worst Things Trump Has Done In His First Year
At the end of December the Washington Post ran an editorial titled The 10 worst things Trump has done in his first year in office. You have to be suspicious of it because it is by Marc A. Thiessen, a rabid Trump Republican apologist, but here's the list:

  1. He has failed to condemn the alt-right.
  2. He stood by Roy Moore.
  3. He has dismissed Russian interference in the 2016 election.
  4. He fired James B. Comey.
  5. His noxious tweets undermine his presidency.
  6. He has attacked the FBI and the intelligence community.
  7. He is giving Miranda rights to captured terrorists.
  8. He is empowering al-Qaeda in Syria.
  9. He has spent more time attacking Republicans than Democrats.
  10. He has made no effort at bipartisanship.

This is a milquetoast list, and I think I can come up with a much better one:

  1. Obstructing Russia scandal investigation, e.g., firing FBI director James Comey, criticizing intelligence agencies.
  2. Ignoring Russian meddling in the American democratic process.
  3. Phasing out the DACA program.
  4. Dismantling the EPA by appointing Scott Pruit.
  5. Attacks on the Affordable Care Act.
  6. Alarming allies throughout the world.
  7. Blatant racism, e.g., saying "There were good people on both sides" after Charleston.
  8. Blatant misogyny, e.g., comments about Rob Porter, criticizing gold star widow after death of husband.
  9. Withdrawal from climate accords.
  10. Roiling already unstable relationship with North Korea.
  11. Coddling Russia and cozying up to Vladimir Putin.
  12. Muslim travel ban.
  13. Withdrawal from Pacific trade pact.
  14. Support of Ray Moore.
  15. Abandoned Puerto Rico.
  16. Made "fake news" a rallying cry for dictators the world over.
  17. Made lying standard operating procedure for himself and his administration.
  18. Brought respect for the US and the office of the Presidency to new lows.
  19. Did not make tax returns public as promised.

Once I started I couldn't stop, so there's many more than 10 items in my list. I attempted to order it by severity.
Anyone want to suggest their own list?

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Add failure to make tax returns public to the bottom of my list.


Replies to this message:
 Message 1881 by ringo, posted 02-14-2018 4:01 PM Percy has responded
 Message 1882 by NoNukes, posted 02-14-2018 6:14 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 14570
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 1881 of 2036 (828232)
02-14-2018 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1880 by Percy
02-14-2018 12:54 PM


Re: The 10 Worst Things Trump Has Done In His First Year
7.He is giving Miranda rights to captured terrorists.

Just out of curiosity, is that supposed to be a bad thing?

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1880 by Percy, posted 02-14-2018 12:54 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10577
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1882 of 2036 (828237)
02-14-2018 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1880 by Percy
02-14-2018 12:54 PM


Re: The 10 Worst Things Trump Has Done In His First Year
Once I started I couldn't stop, so there's many more than 10 items in my list.

Your list is fine. I am not sure I could argue strongly even for a change in the order. I might have chosen a different climate accord bullet point. Maybe. I'd probably rank disassembling the state department in the top 10.

I would expect that even Republicans that were not hanging off of Trump's "strap" might have some issues with the list, so I added some comments on their behalf.

quote:

These four on everyone's list:

Obstructing Russia scandal investigation, e.g., firing FBI director James Comey, criticizing intelligence agencies.
Ignoring Russian meddling in the American democratic process.
Phasing out the DACA program.

There two were Republican priorities well before Trump. Not on a Republicans list:

Dismantling the EPA by appointing Scott Pruit.
Attacks on the Affordable Care Act.

These three should be on anyone's list
Alarming allies throughout the world.
Blatant racism, e.g., saying "There were good people on both sides" after Charleston.
Blatant misogyny, e.g., comments about Rob Porter, criticizing gold star widow after death of husband.

These two probably resonate with most Republicans. Not on their list
Withdrawal from climate accords.
Roiling already unstable relationship with North Korea. (top five on my list)
Coddling Russia and cozying up to Vladimir Putin.

Resonant with large portions of the Republican base. Not on their list.
Muslim travel ban.

These are okay with most Republicans. Not on their list.
Withdrawal from Pacific trade pact.
Support of Ray Moore.

I hope that most folks are not okay with this. I have no idea.
Abandoned Puerto Rico.

Most Republicans are onboard with calling facts they don't like fake news:
Made "fake news" a rallying cry for dictators the world over.
Made lying standard operating procedure for himself and his administration.

Many Republicans don't see it that way. Not on their list.
Brought respect for the US and the office of the Presidency to new lows.


Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1880 by Percy, posted 02-14-2018 12:54 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10577
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1883 of 2036 (828247)
02-15-2018 1:08 AM


Trump trying to get on right side of issue.
After Trump's press Secretary was dragged from pillar to post yesterday because Trump could not find it in his heart to say some words of support for the women who had suffered physical abuse from is staff member, Trump came out with some strong words today.

http://www.independent.co.uk/...ignation-abuse-a8211276.html

quote:
Donald Trump says he is 'totally opposed to domestic violence' as White House faces questions about ex-aide accused of spousal abuse

Roflmao! Totally opposed to wife beating eh? And what else? Forest fires? Is he on the right side of that issue too?

quote:
“Everyone knows that and it almost wouldn't even have to be said”.

Trump latter statement is correct. If you don't spend the first half week supporting wife punching pieces of crap or praising neo nazi's, you almost would not have to come out and pretend to care about folks with black eyes, or who had been deliberately run over by a manic in a car.

Yeah, I am pissed.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


    
Percy
Member
Posts: 17143
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1884 of 2036 (828259)
02-15-2018 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1881 by ringo
02-14-2018 4:01 PM


Re: The 10 Worst Things Trump Has Done In His First Year
ringo writes:

  1. He is giving Miranda rights to captured terrorists.

Just out of curiosity, is that supposed to be a bad thing?

Yeah, that's from the Thiessen list, I'm not really sure. NoNukes probably knows a lot more about the appropriateness of extending Miranda rights to foreign nationals, combatants and terrorists not arrested on American soil.

This is the Thiessen item I found most interesting:

  1. He has spent more time attacking Republicans than Democrats.

So I thought I'd compose a list of Trump nicknames for American politicians and government employees and see whether more Republicans or Democrats are on the list.

  1. Crooked Hilliary (Hillary Clinton (D))
  2. Pocahontas (Senator Elizabeth Warrren (D-MA))
  3. Little Adam Schiff (Rep. Adam Schiff (D-CA)
  4. Sloppy Steve (Steve Bannon (R))
  5. Dicky Durbin (Senate Minority Whip Dick Durbin (D-IL))
  6. Sneaky Dianne Feinstein (Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-CA))
  7. Jeff Flakey (Senator Jeff Flake (R-AZ))
  8. Al Frankenstein (Senator Al Franken (D-MN))
  9. Liddle Bob Corker (Senator Bob Corker (R-TN))
  10. Wacky Congresswoman Wilson (Rep. Frederica Wilson (D-FL))
  11. Little Marco (Senator Marco Rubio (R-FL))
  12. Lyin' Ted (Senator Ted Cruz (R-TX))
  13. Low Energy Jeb (Governor Jeb Bush (R-FL))
  14. Crazy Bernie (Senator Bernie Sanders (D-VT))
  15. Crying Chuck (Senator Chuck Schumer (D-NY))
  16. Leakin' James Comey (Former FBI Director James Comey (R))

The count:

  • Republicans: 7
  • Democrats: 9

So at least according to the derogatory nicknames Trump has used, he attacks Democrats more. Wikipedia has a good list of Trump nicknames that is broader, extending outside the political realm.

Of course, Thiessen is right that Trump is hardest on those who work for him or who are in his own party, and he demands complete loyalty. Who can forget the televised cabinet meeting where one cabinet member after another obsequiously offered their obeisance to Trump.

What would be a good nickname for Trump? I like liar-in-chief.

Note: I forgot to include that Trump didn't make his tax returns public in my list, I'll add it now at the bottom.

--Percy


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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10577
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 1885 of 2036 (828264)
02-15-2018 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1884 by Percy
02-15-2018 8:53 AM


Re: The 10 Worst Things Trump Has Done In His First Year
oNukes probably knows a lot more about the appropriateness of extending Miranda rights to foreign nationals, combatants and terrorists not arrested on American soil.

That's an easy one to answer. The constitution says that folks under US jurisdiction have constitutional rights. The Supreme court has interpreted that to mean that combatants captured on the battlefield do not have those rights until they are under US jurisdiction. There are some complicated rulings that affect folks at Guantanamo Bay as well as some issues that have not been ruled on, but perhaps that is beyond the scope needed here. The question involved seems to be about the more common case.

In the case of folks accused of terrorism, its pretty clear that they do have rights to due process and under the 4, 5th and 6th amendments, but it is equally clear that the political will to actually enforce the constitution in this area is not very strong. But mostly their rights are recognized.

Let's recall that Miranda rights do not prevent you from being tortured. Those rights only apply to whether any revealed content can be used in a trial. Only human decency and the rule of law prevent us from torturing anyone at any time.

Of course, Thiessen is right that Trump is hardest on those who work for him or who are in his own party, and he demands complete loyalty. Who can forget the televised cabinet meeting where one cabinet member after another obsequiously offered their obeisance to Trump.

Yes, that was funny. But it was matched by that Republican get together after passing the latest tax legislation. Among those few who refused to participate in the arselicking at the aforementioned cabinet meeting, I believe only General Mattis is still part of the administration.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1884 by Percy, posted 02-15-2018 8:53 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13876
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1886 of 2036 (828364)
02-16-2018 2:19 PM


Mueller Charges Russians
Russians charged over US 2016 election tampering

Thirteen charged, 3 cases of wire fraud and 5 of aggravated identity theft.

They’re accused of promoting Trump and Sanders against their rivals.

Apparently they had a budget of $1 million per month.

However there are no allegations of anyone in either campaign colluding with these Russians.


Replies to this message:
 Message 1887 by Percy, posted 02-16-2018 2:38 PM PaulK has not yet responded
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Percy
Member
Posts: 17143
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1887 of 2036 (828366)
02-16-2018 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1886 by PaulK
02-16-2018 2:19 PM


Re: Mueller Charges Russians
Other articles about the indictments of Russians for 2016 election meddling:

One of those indicted Yevgeniy Viktorovich Prigozhin, a Russian businessman who helped with financing the disinformation campaign, in effect said Americans are naive and that he was proud to be indicted:

quote:
"The Americans are very impressionable people and they see what they want to see. I respect them very much. I am not at all disappointed that I appear in this list. If they want to see the devil—let them.

Naturally Russia will not extradite their own citizens to the US, but this could prevent them from traveling outside Russia.

Interesting that the Russians were pushing Sanders during the primaries - I wasn't expecting that.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 17143
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1888 of 2036 (828367)
02-16-2018 3:00 PM


More Trump Infidelity
Hillary never reached the point where she wanted out of her marriage to Bill, and I assume Melania will never try to escape her marriage to Trump, but she sure has plenty of reasons. In addition to all the sexual harassment claims, Stormy Daniels is now free to talk about her 2006 affair with Trump, and there are reports that former Playboy Playmate Karen McDougal also had an affair with Trump from 2006 to 2007. Add this to Summer Zervos' (Apprentice contestant) suit against Trump for defamation after he called her a liar when she alleged he sexually assaulted her.

Washington Post article: The latest alleged Trump affair coverup is a damningly familiar tale

--Percy


    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10577
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1889 of 2036 (828368)
02-16-2018 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1886 by PaulK
02-16-2018 2:19 PM


Re: Mueller Charges Russians
However there are no allegations of anyone in either campaign colluding with these Russians.

Right, but let's look at what these Russians are being charged with...

quote:
The goal was "to sow discord in the U.S. political system," including the presidential election, by supporting the Trump campaign and disparaging his Democratic opponent, Hillary Clinton, with ads and rallies.

They’re charged with failing to disclose those expenditures, failing to register as foreign agents and obtaining visas through false and fraudulent statements.


As I read it, these folks had some very sinister goals, but apparently spreading lies, discord in an attempt to affect democracy isn't a crime. Heck, there is nothing about their campaign that would not be legal for any US citizen to do. Did these guys do anything any worse than the "Swift-boating" of John Kerry? I don't think so.

Apparently what the charges in the indictment currently consist of is incidental crimes and rule flaunting necessary only because these folks were hiding their identities as Russians. I would not be surprised if they failed to find a single person from the campaigns who was involved in those kinds of things.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1886 by PaulK, posted 02-16-2018 2:19 PM PaulK has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1891 by Phat, posted 02-16-2018 3:41 PM NoNukes has not yet responded
 Message 1892 by Percy, posted 02-16-2018 4:19 PM NoNukes has responded
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jar
Member
Posts: 30315
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


(2)
Message 1890 of 2036 (828370)
02-16-2018 3:25 PM


Follow the money.
The Wire Fraud charges open the door into tracing money movements and that is the only thing Trump Inc fears.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

  
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