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Author Topic:   Watching Football (American Style)?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 1 of 58 (827949)
02-06-2018 11:00 AM


During the playoffs and the roll up to the Superbowl, I began to question whether watching football was something I wanted to do anymore. My thoughts began to firm up while I was watching a clip featuring Fox News' manly man, Pete Hegseth. In the clip, Hegseth, while standing in a bar full of drinking men, and holding a football, berates Justin Timberlake for saying that he wouldn't allow his son to play football. Justin Timberlake is not on a crusade to end football, but he did answer a question from a reporter about the subject of his own kids playing football.
After spending a couple of seconds berating Timberlake's son, Pete Hegseth came out with these gems:
"This is indicative of the way elites see football... and tough sports, and rough... and manhood, frankly. This idea that you learn things when you get hit. You learn things in the huddle when you get knocked out"
That's right. Hegseth thinks you learn things in the huddle after you get knocked out. I noticed that the closed captioning for the video says "knocked down" probably because what Hegseth actually says is insane.
The fact of the matter is that even former football players are saying that they want to at least delay the age at which their kids play tackle football. There is no reason to criticize parents for being prudent with their kid's health and even less reason to call some parents kid a wuss to make a point.
This season I listen to football players complain about not being able to really whack each other in the head because of the new rules. I also watched a number of starting quarterbacks take vicious shots to the head, after which they were reinserted back into the game as quickly as physically possible. I have to conclude that whatever the NFL says about being concerned about player health, the "protocol" for head injuries is a joke. Player health is really secondary to points, touchdowns, and "Sports Center" quality knock out hits.
In reality, there is probably nothing that can be done to substantially reduce the incidence of CTE in football anyway. Most of the damage to the brain occurs in the routine impacts that don't even cause a concussion.
I find that I cannot in good conscience watch tackle football at any level anymore and I cannot imagine what would cause me to change my mind. I don't plan to crusade for the end of football, or even to ask folks to join me. I don't plan to explain to my friends why I am not watching football unless provoked, although I will tell my wife. I am telling you guys, but I am not going to try to convince you that I am right. But I am not watching the lions eat the Christians anymore.
No, I did not watch the Super Bowl a couple of days ago. It was on. My wife watched it, but I used the time to fix a couple of irritating bugs in a computer program I am working on. I didn't feel any withdrawal pangs.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Taq, posted 02-06-2018 11:32 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 8 by 1.61803, posted 02-06-2018 4:03 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 58 (827972)
02-06-2018 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Stile
02-06-2018 12:55 PM


I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with people willingly, consensually playing football while being aware of the risks.
I am not sure I agree with that. Folks who play the game are not just risking their own health. It's more complicated than you suggest here.
But if it's possible to work this out correctly, then I see no issue in playing football.
I don't believe such a thing is possible, and beyond that, I don't believe that the folks who watch football want anything but brain accelerating into the skull hits when an opposing receiver comes across the middle. Rather than give up a first down, fans want that ball jarred loose at any cost. Well as much as I love watching linebacker Luke Kuechly make plays, I find that I cannot applaud that kind of success anymore.
I think there's enough information out and about that it's not really possible for the league to be hurting players "unknowingly against their will."
There is no choice in the matter. You have to hit other players or get out of the game and do whatever else you learned how to do in college or elsewhere. The incentive to participate in professional football is the money the NFL can get out of me and you, directly or indirectly. Well, they are not getting my money or my eyeballs any longer.
But I don't see a moral reason to boycott the NFL for everyone.
I'm not going to get started on that line of reasoning. Do whatever you will.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Stile, posted 02-06-2018 12:55 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Stile, posted 02-07-2018 9:16 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 10 of 58 (827975)
02-06-2018 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by 1.61803
02-06-2018 4:03 PM


Did you in the past enjoy watching football?
Yes.
If football could be played safely ( I realize that's probably impossible)
would you watch it?
I don't believe that to be possible.
Do you perhaps watch other contact sports without the same convictions?
No. I don't watch them.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by 1.61803, posted 02-06-2018 4:03 PM 1.61803 has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 58 (827997)
02-07-2018 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Stile
02-07-2018 10:33 AM


On one side... people hurting others unwillingly is bad.
What part of the hurting people is unwilling? Getting hurt and hurting others is the forseeable outcome of playing professional football in the way it is currently played. Based on the science we have so far, CTE would seem to be the expected outcome.
How do we prevent this?
Nobody is the least bit interested in doing this. So far, the issue only being addressed with lip service and fake band-aids. I've seen discussions about this, and the most popular sentiment is that the players should shut up and hit each other because they are being paid to do so.
My idea right now is to look at ways to not throw-the-baby-out-with-the-bath-water.
Okay. Now, what's the baby? Your entertainment?
That is pretty much the issue that I wrestled with when deciding not to watch. The "baby" does not seem to have much substance.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Stile, posted 02-07-2018 10:33 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Stile, posted 02-07-2018 11:19 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 58 (828003)
02-07-2018 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Stile
02-07-2018 9:26 AM


That doesn't change the fact that the NFL players themselves have the "best chance" out of anyone and everyone to make such a judgment correctly.
So you think the person whose judgment is being influenced is the most objective. Would you also suggest that we should let hookers judge whether their pimp is using them or not? Or that a meth addict is the best judge what is the best use of his time and money that day?
I can accept that your philosophy is that people should make their own choices. But the idea that nobody else can objectively judge those choices is BS. The least objective person may well be the person taking the money. Sometimes our values say that we just let the person make his own hell.
But beyond that, I'm not making a call for anyone but myself.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Stile, posted 02-07-2018 9:26 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Stile, posted 02-07-2018 12:03 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 58 (828005)
02-07-2018 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Stile
02-07-2018 12:03 PM


[sfdferew]
duplicate
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Stile, posted 02-07-2018 12:03 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 58 (828006)
02-07-2018 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Stile
02-07-2018 12:03 PM


It was whether or not they want to assume the risks for the money they get in return.
We already know the answer to that question. If for you that is the right question, then so be it.
I also agree that you seem to be making the correct call for yourself given the information you've provided here.
Seem to be? I find your phrasing very telling.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Stile, posted 02-07-2018 12:03 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Stile, posted 02-07-2018 12:36 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 58 (828008)
02-07-2018 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Stile
02-07-2018 12:36 PM


I apologize. I understand it can come off as sort of aggressive towards you.
I did not find it aggressive. I find it condescending in exactly the way you seem to avoid condescending to the opinions of football players. No need to apologize for the way you feel.
I find it very important to always understand that other people are other people... and have an equal right to determine their own thoughts/ideas/desires and are always the one-and-only authority on such matters.
I haven't argued against anyone's rights to do anything. Nobody here has done that.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Stile, posted 02-07-2018 12:36 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Stile, posted 02-07-2018 12:53 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 58 (828010)
02-07-2018 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Stile
02-07-2018 12:53 PM


Stile writes:
I find it very important to always understand that other people are other people... and have an equal right to determine their own thoughts/ideas/desires and are always the one-and-only authority on such matters.
Stile writes:
My statement wasn't in the context of anyone's rights to do anything, or even any argument made in this thread.
I have to admit that I cannot make any sense out of your statement about rights not being in the context of anyone's rights.
Here is a statement about rights. Folks have the right to play football, and other folks have the right to watch football. None of that means that others cannot critique their choices. It would be great if violence did not have negative consequences or if our own choices did not contribute to those consequences. But that is not the world we live in.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Stile, posted 02-07-2018 12:53 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 58 (828048)
02-08-2018 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Taq
02-08-2018 12:40 PM


Perhaps the best people to ask are ex-football players who are suffering from brain injuries and get their views.
Yes, the players and even their families would have relevant opinions, particularly after finding out what suffering from CTE is really like. Maybe those opinions are the most informed.
I don't accept that there is no moral component involved as long as players consent of their own free will. I think we should acknowledge that we allow folks to make some choices that are morally questionable in a free society, while we do not let folks make other morally questionable choices. We don't allow folks to sell their body parts for profit, but we do allow folks to damage their brains for similar motivation and for a lot less benefit to humanity.
I am sure somebody could distinguish between the two cases, or alternatively make the argument that selling your organs out to be allowed. I'd be really interested in hearing a case made covering that aspect. But the idea that consent addresses all issues is not one that society currently entertains. Maybe I'm not liberal enough...

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Taq, posted 02-08-2018 12:40 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Stile, posted 02-08-2018 3:24 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 40 of 58 (828055)
02-08-2018 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Stile
02-08-2018 3:24 PM


And, my current gut feeling for the NFL is that it should still be legal because:
That's fine. I agree that football should be legal. I don't agree that there should be a crusade to end football. I'd also have no problem with the NFL dying out because folks find it disgusting.
If such a situation existed... what's wrong with allowing such a person to make some money off of it?
What's wrong with instead trying to convince them not to cut off their limbs? And what's right about applying incentives for people who are waivering over whether they should amputate?
I'll accept that your argument about informed consent being a powerful one, but throwing money into the situation because you want to encourage a behavior adds an extra element beyond consent and provides a risk of exploiting a class of people. It would be impossible to sort out who would have done it anyway after adding money into the mix.
So that, in my mind, the risk, or the practically guaranteed reality of exploitation, is a powerful argument for not allowing folks to sell their organs. I think we all know what group of people would end up in dominating the queue to give up body parts for dough; primarily, the powerless and poor -- folks who society cannot stoop to help so are forced to do whatever they can. The same folks who are already being exploited.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Stile, posted 02-08-2018 3:24 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Stile, posted 02-13-2018 12:36 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 58 (828200)
02-13-2018 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Stile
02-13-2018 12:36 PM


I certainly agree, though, that sorting out the "consent" vs. the "exloitation" can be very difficult.
Possibly impossible. In any event, if you acknowledge that, then I think our disagreement is about whether that is enough of a reason for a making policy. I believe that it can justify not allowing things like operating a "body organs for cash" market. If we disagree about whether we should actually do that, I m fine with leaving the discussion there.
I also want to note that this can be said for a great many things, not just football or limb-severing.
It can be said about making a bet.
I'm not interested in taking the discussion there. Some things should be allowed on that basis and others shouldn't. Tackle football should be allowed, but I am not going to participate or further the sport in any way.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Stile, posted 02-13-2018 12:36 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Stile, posted 02-13-2018 1:08 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 58 (828204)
02-13-2018 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Stile
02-13-2018 1:08 PM


I agree with not allowing a "body organs for cash" market.
However, not for this reason of consent vs exploitation.
Only for the additional reason of 3-rd party exploitation (mob boss selling body parts of other people against their will) that realistically cannot exist in the NFL.
The important thing here is not your particular reason. For you, there are reasons that outweigh the principle of letting people do whatever they want to themselves. Clearly, we do not agree on what constitutes sufficient reason. We are not going to agree on that.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Stile, posted 02-13-2018 1:08 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 58 (828243)
02-14-2018 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Stile
02-13-2018 1:00 PM


It really is only ever known to the individual, and all we get is what they communicate outward
I take strong issue with your comments along this line. Here are some possible arguments against the idea, in no particular order.
1. If there is a compulsion/exploitation to the player's detriment, then the player may not be in a position to make a reasonable decision. At best we can say that the player's decision is the one that should count. But the player may be just another addict.
2. The player's call may not be the ultimate answer because the player is not the only one affected. This idea hit home after reading Taq's comments about Aaron Hernandez. If Aaron's CTE was in part responsible for Hernandez committing murder, then the fact that Aaron benefited from the transaction isn't the last word on things, whether Aaron regrets it or not.
3. Players make their decisions to play, and how to play after with damaged brains in many cases. Their initial decisions may be well-formed decisions, but their decisions to play football in years 6, 10, and 14 may be "punch drunk" decisions. The decisions are influenced by more than just financial gain. They are influenced by nontangible things like notoriety and fame and in some cases an enjoyment of delivering pain and harm to others.
4. Objective evaluations are just as valid as the player's subjective, personal evaluation if the impact on society as a whole is considered. That does not put society as a whole in position to substitute their evaluation for a player's evaluation, but it does mean that other opinions about whether we should be sponsoring football do depend on things other than, "well that's what the player wants."
In short, I think you are simply restating your belief that the player ought to have free choice and that we should not interfere with that choice. But as I noted in another post, it appears that even you believe that the free choice principle has some limits. Neutral observers, of course, cannot read minds, so they are deprived of some information. But the player is not necessarily in a superior person to judge, and in some extreme cases, perhaps we should disregard his judgment.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Stile, posted 02-13-2018 1:00 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Taq, posted 02-15-2018 3:09 PM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 52 by Stile, posted 02-15-2018 3:24 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 58 (828294)
02-15-2018 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Stile
02-15-2018 3:24 PM


I simply don't see them as point that support the conclusion of "we should stop football."
I don't come to the conclusion that we should stop football. But those points, with some other arguments, might support a case to stop football. I am not arguing that the case exists; only that the player's desires are not the only issue.
Which leaves the question... what should we do about these points?
That's a personal question that you have to answer for yourself. You don't need to consult a football player to make a decision. I've made my own call. Others might take up a stronger opposition to football than I would, and others might decide there is no problem.
I have sometimes wondered if giving folks super solid helmets actually creates more problems than it solves. I suspect that current players are not capable of adapting to a game without the modern style weapon helmets because they learned to play the game in ways that require them to prevent injury. But those helmets do absolutely nothing to limit CTE because a helmet cannot stop your brain from smacking into your skull. Only limiting the magnitude of head impulse generated in the collisions can do that.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Stile, posted 02-15-2018 3:24 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
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