Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,819 Year: 3,076/9,624 Month: 921/1,588 Week: 104/223 Day: 2/13 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Creation
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 578 of 1482 (828530)
02-20-2018 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 577 by ringo
02-20-2018 10:49 AM


Re: Bible
Hi ringo,
ringo writes:
You're not saying anything. The fact is that the Bible doesn't say anything about expansion.
But the Bible does say it was stretched out it doesn't say how.
I thought science taught that the fabric of the universe got stretched out.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 577 by ringo, posted 02-20-2018 10:49 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 587 by ringo, posted 02-21-2018 2:32 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 579 of 1482 (828531)
02-20-2018 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 575 by jar
02-20-2018 6:49 AM


Re: infinite
Hi jar,
jar writes:
Yet the reality is that I am and have always been a Christian raised in a Christian household, educated in Christian schools and a registered member of a recognized Christian sect.
You may be religious, Judas was.
But you are far from being like Christ according to your fruit.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 575 by jar, posted 02-20-2018 6:49 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 580 by jar, posted 02-20-2018 4:09 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 581 of 1482 (828533)
02-20-2018 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 576 by NoNukes
02-20-2018 9:34 AM


Re: infinite
Hi NoNukes,
NoNukes writes:
infinite
adjective
limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate.
noun
a space or quantity that is infinite.
From your quote.
Limitless, endless, impossible to measure describes eternal to me. So if it is ok with you I will still say eternal or eternity is infinite. And if it is not ok with you who cares?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 576 by NoNukes, posted 02-20-2018 9:34 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 584 by NoNukes, posted 02-20-2018 6:47 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 586 of 1482 (828595)
02-21-2018 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 585 by DrJones*
02-20-2018 6:53 PM


Re: infinite
Hi dr,
dr writes:
"what is the smallest positive non zero number"
That is a simple question and easy to answer.
There is no smallest positive number.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 585 by DrJones*, posted 02-20-2018 6:53 PM DrJones* has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 588 of 1482 (828600)
02-21-2018 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 584 by NoNukes
02-20-2018 6:47 PM


Re: infinite
Hi NoNukes,
NoNukes writes:
Apparently, you care, ICANT. For some reason, you are always asking me if you have the science or math right whenever you post some clearly wrong stuff that remotely resembles science. Perhaps you should not ask if you don't really want an answer.
I respect your answers to scientific questions.
But when I ask you if Oxford English Dictionary claims that infinite is a synonym for eternal and you go into a rant like you did I might say things like who cares what you think.
The simple answer to the question was yes, but you ranted on for several posts.
Here is what the Oxford English Dictionary says:
quote:
eternal
adjective
1Lasting or existing forever; without end.
Synonyms
everlasting, never-ending, endless, without end
perpetual, undying, immortal, deathless, indestructible,
imperishable, immutable, abiding, permanent, enduring,
infinite, boundless, timeless
ETERNAL | Meaning & Definition for UK English | Lexico.com
I enlarged infinite in the list of synonyms.
As you can see the Oxford English Dictionary lists infinite as a synonym, in the synonyms of eternal.
The correct answer would have been 'yes'.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 584 by NoNukes, posted 02-20-2018 6:47 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 589 by caffeine, posted 02-21-2018 3:33 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 590 of 1482 (828711)
02-22-2018 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 589 by caffeine
02-21-2018 3:33 PM


Re: infinite
Hi caffeine,
caffeine writes:
Let's pretend that ICANT replied:
quote:
By 'infinite' in this context I meant 'infinitely old', not 'infinite in expanse'
But I do not believe there is a difference in infinitely old and infinite in expanse.
As I have said many time I believe the universe has always existed just not in the form we see it today.
I believe the universe is infinite in every direction, that means in duration and size. The universe may change from point A to point B. But it never ceases to exist,
But are you saying if I had used the word infinitely instead of infinite I would have been correct.
Well here is the definition of infinitely.
quote:
in-fi-nite-ly
adverb
to an infinite extent or amount; without limit.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 589 by caffeine, posted 02-21-2018 3:33 PM caffeine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 616 by caffeine, posted 03-20-2018 4:39 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 591 of 1482 (828746)
02-23-2018 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 587 by ringo
02-21-2018 2:32 PM


Re: Bible
Hi ringo,
ringo writes:
You quoted Job, where it says "spread", not stretched. As I've already pointed out, when you spread butter you don't increase the volume.
You quoted Isaiah, where it says the heavens were stretched out "like a curtain". When you stretch out a curtain, it doesn't get bigger. Only it's shape changes, like spreading butter.
The very same word translated streached, and spread in these two
verses are used in the following verse.
quote:
Genesis 33:19 And he bought a parcel of a field, where he had spread his tent, at the hand of the children of Hamor, Shechem's father, for an hundred pieces of money.
It is used several times in the bible concerning a tent.
Those people had a hard time living in those tents if they were spread like butter on a piece of bread.
For them to live in the tent it had to be expanded it by stretching it out.
ringo writes:
So no, the Bible doesn't say the universe expanded.
So yes it says it was stretched or spread which equals expanded.
Unless you want to say those people stretched out their tents on the ground and slept on top of them.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 587 by ringo, posted 02-21-2018 2:32 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 593 by ringo, posted 02-24-2018 11:11 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 592 of 1482 (828747)
02-23-2018 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 550 by Phat
02-15-2018 1:27 PM


Re: Bible
Hi Phat,
Phat writes:
Because the singularity contains everything that is now out there...according to theory. Why would the mass change?
Or perhaps I am confusing mass with weight or volume.
As jar said singularity is not a thing.
In fact singularity equals non existence as all math's break down and General Relativity does not work and can not tell us anything about what did or did not exist at T=0.
That is the reason the only scientific answer for what existed at T-0 is "we don't know".
Therefore, due to the fact science has no facts extending to T=0 anything that is proposed to exist such as multiverses or branes or the existence of anything of matter or energy is not scientific but assumptions made by mankind.
Since the detractors seem to have deserted the thread I will continue with the discussion concerning creation.
So let me start this post with some things that can be found in earlier posts.
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
This is a declarative statement of completed action by the subject of the verb. Being a declarative statement it is a complete sentence.
Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
This scripture declares itself to be the history of the day in which God created the heavens and the earth.
Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the day one.
Period of light equals a day.
Period of light with an evening followed by a period of darkness that ended with the following morning God declared as day one.
A light period is God's definition of a day. Regardless of the duration of that light period.
Phat if you have any questions concerning these statements I would like to try to answer them before I go any further.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 550 by Phat, posted 02-15-2018 1:27 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 594 of 1482 (829317)
03-05-2018 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 593 by ringo
02-24-2018 11:11 AM


Re: Bible
Hi ringo
ringo writes:
Think it through. That's exactly how tents are spread. They go from a small, folded package to a large, flat surface - but the volume of the fabric doesn't change.
Have you ever been camping?
What would you have tent dwellers do? Spread the tent on the ground and then put their bedrolls on top of it and lay under the sky?
Go to your local sports store and check out their tent they have set up and then get back to me.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 593 by ringo, posted 02-24-2018 11:11 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 595 by ringo, posted 03-06-2018 12:05 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 597 of 1482 (829401)
03-06-2018 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 595 by ringo
03-06-2018 12:05 PM


Re: Bible
Hi ringo,
ringo writes:
As I said, if a tent was expanding like the universe, the spaces between the threads would get bigger, giving you a tent full of holes. I don't have to go to a sports store to know I wouldn't buy that tent.
That spread out 10' x 10' tent that is laying on the ground will expand to a volume around 700 cubic feet.
Moses did not have a word that could have been translated as expand or expansion.
He probably experienced his stomach expanding as he ate a meal but he thought he was just getting full.
If you ever decide you want to know what the Hebrew text says you will have to quit thinking the way you do and begin to think like you would if you lived 3000 years ago. Until then you will remain clueless.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 595 by ringo, posted 03-06-2018 12:05 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 598 by NoNukes, posted 03-06-2018 7:35 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 603 by ringo, posted 03-07-2018 2:19 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 608 by Astrophile, posted 03-12-2018 4:16 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 599 of 1482 (829428)
03-06-2018 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 598 by NoNukes
03-06-2018 7:35 PM


Re: Bible
Hi NoNukes,
NoNukes writes:
In short, what is the point of making arguments of this type?
The point was that Moses used the best word he had to describe what he was trying to say.
He knew he could spread his tent out on the ground and then get inside and raise it up, or he could put poles up and spread it over the poles to form his tent in which he could get in and be out of the weather and especially the rain.
If he just spread it out on the ground and made his bed on top of it he would have got wet if it rained.
He said spread out like a tent not like a bed sheet as ringo wants it to be spread out.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 598 by NoNukes, posted 03-06-2018 7:35 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 600 by NoNukes, posted 03-06-2018 10:52 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 604 of 1482 (829705)
03-12-2018 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 603 by ringo
03-07-2018 2:19 PM


Re: Bible
Hi ringo,
ringo writes:
The volume enclosed by the material increases to a certain point and then stops. What science describes is the material itself expanding, and with no particular limit on how much it can expand.
Yes I know that science claims that the universe in contained inside of a fabric of some kind.
But since there is no such fabric that would do what they say that fabric does kind of gives me the idea that they don't know what they are talking about.
Apparently they are talking about something that is not made out of fabric.
In other words they assume that there is something that can act like they believe it does and they call it fabric for a lack of a known word to describe what they want to say.
ringo writes:
ICANT writes:
If you ever decide you want to know what the Hebrew text says you will have to quit thinking the way you do and begin to think like you would if you lived 3000 years ago.
That's basically what I'm trying to tell you. You should give up the idea that the ancient Hebrews had any hint of an idea about the expanding universe. They had no words for the concept because they didn't have the concept.
I have been told on this site that a balloon is like the fabric of the universe and you could put dots on it and as you inflate the balloon it would express how the distance grows between the things in the universe. That is a much worse example of what takes place than Moses stretching out a tent would be.
The best example given is the baking of a cake with raisins in it. The distance between the raisins would increase as the cake grows. But that is still a lousy explanation of what is observed, as the cake can only be so big. The distance between objects in the Milky Way varies from time to time due to their orbital routes they take. But the space between those objects does not continue to increase at all times.
By the way the distance is not expanding between the Milky Way galaxy and the Andromeda galaxy. They are on a collision course
Since they are on a collision course they could not have been produce out of the same BB. If they had been the space would be increasing between them instead of decreasing.
So I say Moses describing the heavens being stretched out like a tent is just as good a description as anything that has been put forth here. At least he knew the volume of the tent would increase as it was stretched out. A balloon will stretch so far and then burst.
The universe is still stretching out in all directions Moses was just talking about a huge tent. Just like cavediver was talking about a huge balloon that could just expand forever.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 603 by ringo, posted 03-07-2018 2:19 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 605 by ringo, posted 03-12-2018 1:21 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 606 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-12-2018 1:27 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 607 by NoNukes, posted 03-12-2018 1:43 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 609 of 1482 (830048)
03-20-2018 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 607 by NoNukes
03-12-2018 1:43 PM


Re: Bible
Hi NoNukes,
NoNukes writes:
More Wow. After the big bang, then other forces in the universe can still change the trajectory of some objects.
What are the forces or mechanism that can stop space from expanding?
Either all space is expanding.
or
Some space is expanding and some space is receding. This is what is observed.
Since the Milky Way galaxy and the Andromeda galaxy are getting closer together at 250,000 to 300,000 mph, the space between them is receding at a rapid pace.
Einstein's general relativity says that matter and energy warp space and time.
According to Einstein the stuff in the universe, will determine the ultimate fate of the universe.
His theory predicted that the universe must either be expanding or contracting. Because of that he produced his fudge factor.
In 1929 Hubble found hard evidence that the universe was expanding. After which Einstein admitted his "greatest blunder" of his career.
The fact that the universe was expanding spawned the idea that the universe had to begin as something incredibly small. I have been told here as small as a pinpoint by some and a pea by others.
Hubble's proof was the cosmic microwave background radiation — a constant stream of radio waves, coming from all directions in the sky
This afterglow is supposedly produced by the superfast expansion of the small pea sized universe that existed a billionth of a second after T=0.
This same afterglow could just as easily have been produced by the light period of undetermined duration in which God created the heavens and the earth prior to T=0 (time as we know it).
God created darkness that is found at Genesis 1:2 according to what He said to Isaiah that he recorded in Isaiah 47:5. "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
God frames the light as He is light (pure energy) but darkness did not exist until God created it. At the end of the dark period that existed at Genesis 1:2 with the following period of light God declared day one had ceased. The translators mistranslated the Hebrew word for one as first. The duration of the light period that ended with the darkness of Genesis 1:2 is undetermined as it began in the beginning, whenever that was. The period of darkness that existed at Genesis 1:2 is of an unknown duration as it existed from the moment it was created until it ended with the beginning of the light period of the second day.
But ops, science discovered that not all parts of the universe are increasing in distance between each other. Since something is required to hold the universe together and to produce enough gravitational influence to cause some of the object in the universe to be blue shifted rather than red shifted to each other. Something had to be invented to be able to accomplish this feat. As science had to have something to preform such a feat dark matter was assumed to be the culprit. Makes no difference that no one knows what dark matter is or what it is made of, and no one has yet been able to find dark matter but it has to exist. If it don't exist all the theories concerning the universe are nothing more than the imagination of mankind. Dark matter makes up 27% of the universe and dark Energy makes up 68% of the universe. Therefore Dark matter and Dark Energy make up 95% of the universe.
That leaves only 5% of the universe being known. You and everyone else here want to take what you know about that 5% of the universe and add your assumptions to that and then tell me that you are correct and I am wrong.
I know what makes up the 95% of the universe that you don't have a clue about.
NoNukes writes:
"The coffee cups in my cupboard are not moving apart. Hence the universe is not expanding." Pretty silly, eh?
You said that, I didn't. Can I quote this statement in my book?
God Bless,
Edited by ICANT, : No reason given.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 607 by NoNukes, posted 03-12-2018 1:43 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 610 of 1482 (830049)
03-20-2018 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 605 by ringo
03-12-2018 1:21 PM


Re: Bible
Hi ringo,
ringo writes:
But a tent can not expand forever, so Moses was clearly wrong.
The universe can't expand forever either. It will cease to expand when it reaches a heat death. That will occur when a state of uniform distribution of energy is reached due to results of the second law of thermodynamics.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 605 by ringo, posted 03-12-2018 1:21 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 611 by ringo, posted 03-20-2018 1:14 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 612 of 1482 (830054)
03-20-2018 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 606 by Tanypteryx
03-12-2018 1:27 PM


Re: Bible
Hi Tanypteryx
Tanypteryx writes:
The space between them is expanding, but the force of gravity is stronger at this distance and is attracting them toward each other at a higher rate than the rate of expansion.
Could you explain in detail how something can be expanding and contracting at the same time?
Tanypteryx writes:
Galaxies like the Milky Way and Andromeda remain as discrete objects in the Universe rather than flying apart because gravitational attraction exerts enough force to counter rotation and universal expansion.
Are you saying that the Milky Way and Andromeda are like a north and south magnet with the ability to attract each other over a distance that would take light 2.5 million years to travel?
How much matter would be required to produce that much gravitational attraction?
If that is what is causing the Milky Way and Andromeda to be on a collision course why aren't all galaxies on a collision course with IC1101 which extends about 2 million light years from its core? Which makes it up to 6 million light years in diameter, depending on the size of the core.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 606 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-12-2018 1:27 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 615 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-20-2018 3:49 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024