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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 347 of 3207 (721708)
03-11-2014 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Tangle
10-22-2012 5:22 PM


Re: The Northwest Passage
tangle writes:
Personally, I'm entirely happy to rule out any and all the Gods we've so far invented, but leave open, as an outside possibility, the chance that one day a thoroughly disinterested god will be found playing dominos with himself in another dimension.
That's what I'm saying. We don't "know" that that outside possibility doesn't exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Tangle, posted 10-22-2012 5:22 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 351 by Phat, posted 03-11-2014 4:05 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 360 of 3207 (721814)
03-12-2014 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 351 by Phat
03-11-2014 4:05 PM


Re: The Northwest Passage
Phat writes:
From a strictly neutral, lifeless, and emotionless critical scientific approach, you are correct.
What I for one attempt to share with you skeptics is my subjective experiences.
Well, my subjective experiences confirm the neutral, lifeless and emotionless critical approach.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 351 by Phat, posted 03-11-2014 4:05 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 364 of 3207 (721830)
03-12-2014 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 362 by Stile
03-12-2014 12:32 PM


Re: Not dealing with absolutes
Stile writes:
That's not how we use the word "know" because it's an unattainable standard and is therefore useless to us as limited human beings.
It's not an unattainable standard at all. I advocate using the word "know" for something that you can demonstrate on demand. You can demonstrate baking a cake. You can not demonstrate the sun rising at some date in the future.. You expect it; you don't know it. It's a subtle distinction but one that you should be able to understand.
Stile writes:
The same evidence is available for God.
Only if you assume that God "would" jump out from His hiding place and reveal Himself to you. Otherwise, you can only claim that you know God isn't with you every day, in your heart, in your mind, etc. Others have detected Him with them every day, in their hearts, in their minds, etc. so it's the same situation as one person finding the monster and another person not finding it. The jury is still out on who is right.
Stile writes:
Just because you can imagine another place that we haven't searched yet... doesn't make all the other claims and searches disappear. That evidence is still there, and that evidence still counts.
It counts in the same way as looking under half of the bed counts. Until you look under the other half, you can't say you know that there's no monster under the bed.
Stile writes:
You seem to be arguing for a 100%-absolute-knowledge use of the word.
Nope. I'm arguing for knowledge versus expectation, knowledge versus speculation. In 1491, Europeans didn't "know" that the Americas didn't exist; they had only failed to find them. They speculated that it was clear sailing to the East Indies (just too far to make it). They expected Columbus to fail; they didn't "know" he would.
Stile writes:
... "being reasonable" (or rational, or logical...) does not require ringo's agreement.
And using words properly, distinctly, usefully does not require Stile's.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by Stile, posted 03-12-2014 12:32 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 366 by Stile, posted 03-12-2014 2:14 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 371 of 3207 (721912)
03-13-2014 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 366 by Stile
03-12-2014 2:14 PM


Re: Philisophical Difference
Stile writes:
I can't think of a way to identify that one method is "better" than the other.
Science-minded people should aim for clear and precise usage of words. As I have said, your use of the word "know" is the same as the creationist's use of the word theory: sloppy. You should aim higher.
Stile writes:
I suppose the biggest negative on open-ended-ness would be that you may not be able to claim to "know" anything.
As I have also said, more than once, we can claim to know what we do know, what we can demonstrate that we know.
Stile writes:
Therefore "I know that God does not exist" would only be valid if you're content (personal subjective measure) with the amount of knowledge we've gained so far and do not feel it is necessary to take any further risks into "the unknown" in order to increase your pool of information.
Only people who think they know more than they do know are content. The extremes - "I know there is a God" and "I know there is no God" - are the same in that respect.
Stile writes:
... it means that all claims of knowledge (no matter what their forms... open-ended or evidence-based) are all nothing more than personal opinion?
I would say "collective opinion", which is one step toward objectivity. If I can demonstrate that I know something, to the extent that you agree that I know it, then I can say that I know it.
Stile writes:
But, how much evidence is "enough" evidence?
It's more a question of how much of the territory you've searched. You've looked under one corner of the bed and declared there's no monster. The appearance is that you don't want to find a monster so you're very careful to limit your search.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by Stile, posted 03-12-2014 2:14 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 372 by Stile, posted 03-13-2014 12:27 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 373 of 3207 (721923)
03-13-2014 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 372 by Stile
03-13-2014 12:27 PM


Re: Philisophical Difference
Stile writes:
However, I do see the information we have on God as being more than the information we have on many other things we all agree that they do not exist.
There's a difference between agreeing that something (most likely) doesn't exist and claiming to "know' that it doesn't exist.
Stile writes:
It may be true for you... and may be a part of why you're not content with the information we have on God.
On the contrary, I'm quite content with the information I/we have on God. I have no particular desire to look for more information because I have no particular desire to know whether or not God exists. I do not, like some, have the arrogance to call my contentment "knowledge".
Stile writes:
Even if you bake a cake right in front of me... Maybe it's your body-double and not actually you. Therefore... you can't demonstrate your ability beyond a certain level of "contentment" with the information.
Irrelevant. The point is that you are convinced that I know and anybody else who sees the demonstration is convinced that I know. The evidence is evident to anybody who looks at it honestly. The same is not true of your "evidence" against the existence of God.
Stile writes:
You are unable to poke any holes in the argument that my rational position is based upon.
I'm not trying to poke holes in your argument. I agree with your conclusion. All I'm saying is that you're stating it badly.
Stile writes:
The "if" statements even remove all your silliness about a strict definition of the word "know."
Sure. You can use "if" statements to make any statement meaningless: "If pigs could fly bacon would be more expensive." That's exactly why we have to use strict definitions instead of watering everything down with what-ifs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by Stile, posted 03-13-2014 12:27 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 374 by Stile, posted 03-13-2014 1:09 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 389 of 3207 (827847)
02-02-2018 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 378 by Phat
01-23-2018 3:15 AM


Re: Rrhaining On This Parade
Phat writes:
One notable attribute of believers in God vs Santa is that most of the God believers are otherwise rational adults.
One notable attribute of believers in God is that they like to think they're being rational about their belief.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by Phat, posted 01-23-2018 3:15 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 397 of 3207 (828741)
02-23-2018 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 395 by AlexCaledin
02-22-2018 2:07 PM


AlexCaledin writes:
ahteists are damn great experts in making "straw gods" and disproving them . . .
Atheists look for straw gods and can't find them.
Theists look for straw gods and find them.
What's the difference?

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by AlexCaledin, posted 02-22-2018 2:07 PM AlexCaledin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 398 by Phat, posted 02-23-2018 12:52 PM ringo has replied
 Message 399 by Rrhain, posted 02-23-2018 9:01 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 402 of 3207 (828793)
02-24-2018 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 398 by Phat
02-23-2018 12:52 PM


Re: A God By Any Other Name
Phat writes:
In my belief, He imagined us long before we had evolved to the point of imagining Him.
In your imagination....

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 398 by Phat, posted 02-23-2018 12:52 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 403 by Phat, posted 02-24-2018 2:30 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 409 of 3207 (828857)
02-25-2018 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 403 by Phat
02-24-2018 2:30 PM


Re: A God By Any Other Name
Phat writes:
And yet we were created in His imagination.
You're creating a God in your imagination Who creates everything in His imagination. And you constantly accuse me of wanting to be my own God.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 403 by Phat, posted 02-24-2018 2:30 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 410 by Phat, posted 02-25-2018 1:33 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 411 of 3207 (828861)
02-25-2018 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 410 by Phat
02-25-2018 1:33 PM


Re: A God By Any Other Name
Phat writes:
Is it possible to simply describe a God who may exist without necessarily creating Him?
I can describe a carrot because I've seen one. How do you describe something you can't see? Worse than that, how do you describe something that you imagine is deliberately hiding from you?

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by Phat, posted 02-25-2018 1:33 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 412 by Phat, posted 02-25-2018 1:48 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 413 of 3207 (828867)
02-25-2018 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 412 by Phat
02-25-2018 1:48 PM


Re: A God By Any Other Name
Phat writes:
... you may well have concluded that they were simply copying off of the papers of others who had claimed to see such a God....
One of the signs of copying is that they all make the same mistakes.
Phat writes:
So back to my question.
Is it possible to simply describe a God who may exist without necessarily creating Him?
Logically, the answer is no. It is not possible.
Logically, the answer is yes. I can describe a one-legged pirate and by describing him, I create him.
Phat writes:
So try creating this God that was hiding.
You've already done that, so I'll just go with your description.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 412 by Phat, posted 02-25-2018 1:48 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 417 by Phat, posted 02-26-2018 11:16 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 418 of 3207 (828886)
02-26-2018 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 417 by Phat
02-26-2018 11:16 AM


Re: A God By Any Other Name
Phat writes:
It's your story---how could I create the god that you claimed was hidden?
You're the one who claims he's hiding, aren't you? Haven't you said that He doesn't show Himself because He wants us to have faith?
Phat writes:
I argue that by using the term "hidden" we should assume that you have something to hide.
Indeed. Why doesn't He preach in stadiums like Billy Graham?

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 417 by Phat, posted 02-26-2018 11:16 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 419 by Phat, posted 02-26-2018 4:37 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 426 of 3207 (828928)
02-27-2018 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 419 by Phat
02-26-2018 4:37 PM


Re: God and Football
Phat writes:
Some would say that he used Billy to do the job.
That doesn't answer the question of why He hides Himself away.
Phat writes:
Others may argue that Jesus---even if He lived in todays culture--would never do such a thing.
And they'd be wrong, of course. Jesus had crowds of 5000 in Matthew 14 and 4000 in Mark 8.
Phat writes:
You would be more likely to find God hanging out down with your homeless friends.
Then why don't we?

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 419 by Phat, posted 02-26-2018 4:37 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 433 of 3207 (829011)
02-28-2018 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 431 by Faith
02-28-2018 11:06 AM


Faith writes:
Have you tried adding up the years from Adam to the Flood?
I have. I think Bishop Ussher got it about right. I'm sure his ghost will be glad to have my endorsement.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 431 by Faith, posted 02-28-2018 11:06 AM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 449 of 3207 (829555)
03-09-2018 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 447 by Phat
03-09-2018 10:06 AM


Re: The Irony
Phat writes:
The atheist ended up winning the debate due to superior logic, but the attitude was one of intellectual smugness and contrasted with the humility of the Christians.
Which I think speaks volumes.
How often is it appropriate to put "Christian" and "humility" in the same sentence?
Are you really fooling yourself? Were those the real attitudes or were they what your apologetics told you to see?

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 447 by Phat, posted 03-09-2018 10:06 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 450 by Phat, posted 03-09-2018 12:11 PM ringo has replied

  
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