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Author Topic:   The Debt Clock
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 106 of 114 (820217)
09-17-2017 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Phat
09-17-2017 3:40 PM


Re: What The Masses Deserve
Phat writes:
So if you were the union chief officer, would you propose flat wage scales for every worker versus progressive wage scales based on length of service? Should the new guy get as much as the 14-year veteran?
I might propose disbanding the union. Unions have mostly outlived their usefulness. They did a lot of good for (some) working people but that should have been done by political action.
We've gotten to the point where union members can't afford to strike without risking their lavish lifestyle. What good is the right to strike if you lose your third car and your boat?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Phat, posted 09-17-2017 3:40 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by NoNukes, posted 09-17-2017 3:56 PM ringo has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 107 of 114 (820218)
09-17-2017 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by ringo
09-17-2017 3:51 PM


Re: What The Masses Deserve
What good is the right to strike if you lose your third car and your boat?
That does not appear to be a problem that Phat has. Perhaps that is not the issue for a substantial number of his peers.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by ringo, posted 09-17-2017 3:51 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Phat, posted 09-17-2017 4:43 PM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 109 by ringo, posted 09-18-2017 11:41 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 108 of 114 (820225)
09-17-2017 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by NoNukes
09-17-2017 3:56 PM


Re: What The Masses Deserve
Although some workers (longtime veterans) have bought houses which they would lose if they went on a lengthy strike. The CEO's wouldnt even lose so much as sleep.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by NoNukes, posted 09-17-2017 3:56 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 109 of 114 (820253)
09-18-2017 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by NoNukes
09-17-2017 3:56 PM


Re: What The Masses Deserve
NoNukes writes:
That does not appear to be a problem that Phat has. Perhaps that is not the issue for a substantial number of his peers.
I've been a union member and I've been on strike. Try paying all of your bills on strike pay. Nobody I knew voted to strike and everybody I knew was praying for the strike to end. The strike was about as effective as shaking your fist at a hurricane. There was never any doubt about the outcome.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by NoNukes, posted 09-17-2017 3:56 PM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Phat, posted 09-18-2017 11:53 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 110 of 114 (820257)
09-18-2017 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by ringo
09-18-2017 11:41 AM


Re: What The Masses Deserve
The thing is, the union is the best way to negotiate raises. The non-union chains make roughly $8.00 an hour less than we do. Our argument is that the masses deserve a better pay rate. If we all simply wait for the bottom to catch up, we will all be on the bottom, swimming fervently towards the surface.
I also figured out the unions strike fund, (roughly 24 million) would come out to $3400.00 per member...enough to last us about 10 weeks. You are right---nobody wants a strike, but nobody wants to get thrown in the pool with global labor values, which are far less than what most Americans make.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by ringo, posted 09-18-2017 11:41 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by ringo, posted 09-18-2017 12:08 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 111 of 114 (820260)
09-18-2017 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Phat
09-18-2017 11:53 AM


Re: What The Masses Deserve
Phat writes:
The thing is, the union is the best way to negotiate raises.
But it doesn't work. Back in the seventies, our construction unions negotiated their little hearts out to get wage parity with Alberta. Their argument was, "What keeps workers from moving to Alberta if the wages are higher there?" They finally got wage parity and five minutes later the construction unions in Alberta were saying, "We have higher living costs than Saskatchewan so we need a raise."
As long as you're negotiating for higher wages, you're just chasing your tail.
Phat writes:
Our argument is that the masses deserve a better pay rate.
No it isn't. Your argument is that you deserve more than the masses. If you cared at all about the masses, you'd be campaigning for a minimum wage hike.
Phat writes:
If we all simply wait for the bottom to catch up, we will all be on the bottom, swimming fervently towards the surface.
Yeah, to hell with equality. Next thing you know the working class will want the vote.
Phat writes:
... nobody wants to get thrown in the pool with global labor values, which are far less than what most Americans make.
It's too late. You're already in the pool. You love buying cheap goods from China and Indonesia and Bangladesh but where are you going to sell your own goods if the masses can't afford them?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Phat, posted 09-18-2017 11:53 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 112 of 114 (828941)
02-27-2018 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
07-08-2013 7:23 PM


Debt 2018
... is it a fair reflection of a problem that the Western world seems unable to adequately acknowledge?
All I know is that I looked at the numbers and realized that since the 2008 financial crises, public debt has literally doubled from 10 trillion to 20 trillion! Of course if adding to it prevents a collapse or deflation of my net worth, (buying power) Im reluctantly all for it. The alternative is for my social security, pension, and savings to all be leveraged collateral to reset it and pay it bck....which I would be highly irritated at.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Straggler, posted 07-08-2013 7:23 PM Straggler has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Diomedes, posted 02-27-2018 3:52 PM Phat has not replied

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 995
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


Message 113 of 114 (828943)
02-27-2018 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Phat
02-27-2018 3:45 PM


Re: Debt 2018
If it makes you feel better Phat, there are other countries in far more dire straits when it comes to public debt relative to the United States.
The metric you want to look at is debt to GDP ratios. The USA does have debt issues, but it isn't that far out of whack relative to other western nations. There are other countries like Greece, Italy and Japan that are far worse off:
WEF: Countries With Highest Level of Government Debt Vs GDP
Japan especially is likely going to have severe issues in the coming decades. They have an aging population and thanks to a deep seated sense of nationalism, they don't really embrace immigrants.
Also, China is a bit of an enigma. A lot of their actual debt numbers are somewhat suspect. By some accounts, their debt to GDP ratio is between 250% to 300%. Now they are a rapidly growing nation. But the way they report their numbers and the general tendency for secrecy from the communist party leads many to speculate that their debt levels are unsustainable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Phat, posted 02-27-2018 3:45 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Taq, posted 02-27-2018 6:13 PM Diomedes has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


(3)
Message 114 of 114 (828952)
02-27-2018 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Diomedes
02-27-2018 3:52 PM


Re: Debt 2018
Diomedes writes:
Japan especially is likely going to have severe issues in the coming decades. They have an aging population and thanks to a deep seated sense of nationalism, they don't really embrace immigrants.
I think this is one of the more important facts that gets ignored in all of our political debates. Birth rates in first world nations has really declined since the 60's, and this has put a real stress on social safety nets as the Baby Boomers hit retirement age. Young immigrants and their children are a boon for any first world country.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Diomedes, posted 02-27-2018 3:52 PM Diomedes has not replied

  
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