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Author Topic:   The meaning of the trinity
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 21 days)
Posts: 1108
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 361 of 366 (812296)
06-15-2017 8:06 PM


A question about the Christian ( not Zoroastrian! ) Holy Spirit.
Faith and Phat claim it is the same thing as the Spirit of Christ in Romans 8:9

I request as many sources from Paul's epistles as Faith & Phat can find to clarify the Pauline view.

(Can you understand that Faith? I will be happy to clarify if the request makes no sense )


Replies to this message:
 Message 362 by Faith, posted 06-15-2017 11:03 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 28068
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 362 of 366 (812307)
06-15-2017 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 361 by LamarkNewAge
06-15-2017 8:06 PM


Re: A question about the Christian ( not Zoroastrian! ) Holy Spirit.
I can't find any other verses that have the same distinction you are asking for. I'm sure the following isn't what you want but it's the best I can find. But your whole preoccupation seems nonsensical to me and unnecessary.

Jhn 1:33
And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Jhn 7:39
(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Act 2:4
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

1Co 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 361 by LamarkNewAge, posted 06-15-2017 8:06 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 363 by LamarkNewAge, posted 06-15-2017 11:28 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 21 days)
Posts: 1108
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 363 of 366 (812313)
06-15-2017 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 362 by Faith
06-15-2017 11:03 PM


Re: A question about the Christian ( not Zoroastrian! ) Holy Spirit.
FIRST THING:

I am not going to be able to fathom how you can accuse me of being full of nonsense simply because I am interested in understanding the Pauline view of the Holy Spirit.

I remember when you used to argue with me when I said that the Council of Nicea should be seen as totally unimportant and irrelevant to the teachings of the 1st century founders of (what would become ) Christianity.

You strongly insisted on the importance of the 4th century Trinity doctrine and seemed to be saying that salvation rode on whether individuals accepted or rejected Constantine's 325 AD church council . (Have you grown out of that my mindset in the last 18 months? )

SECOND :

Can we stick with the (genuine and disputed in terms of authentic Pauline authorship ) Epistles of Paul, since they are chronologically the most early. Nobody doubts Paul wrote 1 Thessalonians in the first 1/3 of the 50s in the first century. The rest of the epistles were all written before 62 AD. The authentic ones anyway. The technology of recent decades (computers ) have backed up the single author of the 7 authentic Pauline Epistles.

Both fundamentalists and the "Jesus never existed" crowd should value the Pauline epistles as an area of extreme chronological importance.

THIRD

You did quote from 1 Cor 12:3 .

Do you want to interpret the verse?

Is that the only Holy Spirit verse?

We can get to Acts quotes of Paul, but the book probably was written after 90 AD

FOURTH

Can you please show us how the quotes are consistent with the Council of Nicea?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by Faith, posted 06-15-2017 11:03 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10770
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 364 of 366 (828991)
02-28-2018 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by jar
08-15-2014 4:55 PM


Re: Re-Trinity
What DOES The Bible say?
I was reading the Athanasian Creed recently. To wit:
quote:
Whoever desires to be saved must, above all, hold the [Christian] faith. Whoever does not keep it whole and undefiled will, without doubt, perish eternally.

And the [Christian] faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confusing the persons nor dividing the substance. For the Father is one person, the Son is another, and the Holy Spirit is another. But the Godhead of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit is one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit: the Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, the Holy Spirit uncreated; the Father infinite, the Son infinite, the Holy Spirit infinite; the Father eternal, the Son eternal, the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet there are not three Eternals, but one Eternal, just as there are not three Uncreated or three Infinites, but one Uncreated and one Infinite. In the same way, the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, the Holy Spirit almighty; and yet there are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God; and yet there are not three Gods, but one God. So the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, the Holy Spirit is Lord; and yet there are not three Lords, but one Lord. Just as we are compelled by the Christian truth to acknowledge each distinct person as God and Lord, so also are we prohibited by the [Christian] religion to say that there are three Gods or Lords.


Martin Luther was quoted summing it up this way:

quote:
In the first place, the Creed has until now been divided into twelve articles. Yet, if all the doctrinal points that are written in the Scriptures and that belong to the Creed were to be distinctly set forth, there would be far more articles. They could not all be clearly expressed in so few words. But to make the Creed most easily and clearly understood as it is to be taught to children, we shall briefly sum up the entire Creed in three chief articles, according to the three persons in the Godhead [Colossians 2:9]. Everything that we believe is related to these three persons. So the First Article, about God the Father, explains creation. The Second Article, about the Son, explains redemption. And the Third, about the Holy Spirit, explains sanctification. We present them as though the Creed were briefly summarized in so many words: I believe in God the Father, who has created me; I believe in God the Son, who has redeemed me; I believe in the Holy Spirit, who sanctifies me. One God and one faith, but three persons. Therefore, three articles or confessions.
Martin Luther, The Large Catechism
Thus Luther takes Colossians 2:9 as his Biblical snippet justifying the Trinitarian Doctrine.

Do you know much about the history of how the Athanasian Creed came about?
Hopefully, it was motivated by a desire for clarity rather than political ulterior motives...I will have to study it more.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by jar, posted 08-15-2014 4:55 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 365 by Faith, posted 02-28-2018 10:19 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 366 by jar, posted 02-28-2018 11:57 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 28068
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 365 of 366 (828992)
02-28-2018 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 364 by Phat
02-28-2018 9:37 AM


Re: Re-Trinity
Yes I know how it came about. Athanasius was answering the heretics of his day. I know he answered those who refused to recognize that Jesus Christ is God, and he may also have dealt with those who had what is called a "modalist" view that pictures God switching from Father to Son and Holy Spirit as different modes of His Being rather than existing as three separate Persons all equally God and Lord. Athanasius was a man of integrity serving God and the Church honestly and not from any "political" motives.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by Phat, posted 02-28-2018 9:37 AM Phat has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30355
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 366 of 366 (829003)
02-28-2018 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 364 by Phat
02-28-2018 9:37 AM


Re: Re-Trinity
Phat writes:

Do you know much about the history of how the Athanasian Creed came about?
Hopefully, it was motivated by a desire for clarity rather than political ulterior motives...I will have to study it more.

Of course it was motivated by the need to define one point as authoritative; a political motive as usual.

The only purpose for things like heresy are political; it is declaring some group out and a different group in.

Being political is not bad or good, it is simply a reflection of reality.

But let's look at your cite:

Colossians 2:9 writes:

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Please point out the part that references the Trinity?

But wait; there's more.

Let's look at all of Colossians 2.

quote:
For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh;

2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.

5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

22 Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.


There is absolutely nothing in there even vaguely related to the concept of the Trinity and in fact the chapter in Colossians seems to be condemning practices like declaring heresy or taking a single line totally out of context or of using proof texts and in fact almost all of the practices of Evangelical Biblical Christianity.

I'm glad you brought this up since it is such a classic example of the utterly silly lengths apologists and marketeers go to to try to create support for their preferred dogma.

Edited by jar, : get rid of random smilies


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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