Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 80 (8871 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 10-22-2018 1:08 AM
233 online now:
AnswersInGenitals, Dr Adequate, DrJones*, PaulK, RAZD (5 members, 228 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: paradigm of types
Post Volume:
Total: 840,525 Year: 15,348/29,783 Month: 1,292/1,502 Week: 49/241 Day: 2/47 Hour: 0/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
1
2Next
Author Topic:   Godís witness ?
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14419
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1 of 17 (829066)
03-02-2018 11:23 AM


A Mormon amateur apologist writes:


I have come to know the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God by reading it, applying itís teachings, and asking God if it is true. Through applying itís teachings, I experienced the most profound change from wickedness to righteousness. When I asked God, He bore witness to me more powerful than mere dna tests that it is true.

Itís a familiar sentiment. But itís not one restricted to the Mormons - people who would loudly (and rightly!) deny that the Book of Mormon has any status as Scripture would say much the same about their own beliefs.

But why should they be taken any more seriously than this Mormon ?


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Phat, posted 03-02-2018 11:51 AM PaulK has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11322
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2 of 17 (829067)
03-02-2018 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by PaulK
03-02-2018 11:23 AM


Human Nature
I suppose it is human nature to assign the penultimate status to your own belief.

When I first got saved in 1993, I found myself researching my own chosen belief in the context of the apologetic books (and later websites) of that time. jar, our friendly resident curmudgeon, educated me on how to be unbiased and more objective in my learning. I watch how our member Faith defends her beliefs stubbornly and determinedly, never allowing herself to be fully objective and unbiased, but I think this has to do with human nature.

An example of articles that I used to read include ones like this:
The Big Religion Chart

Even today, I have a problem with 100% objectivity because it goes at odds with my belief which I hesitate to throw away in the name of objectivity.

PaulK writes:

...But why should they be taken any more seriously than this Mormon ?

I also have a problem assigning the same value to any belief apart from my own. I was always taught (and believed) that standing for something was better than falling for just anything (or nothing).

Edited by Phat, : added

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ĖRC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ĖMark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by PaulK, posted 03-02-2018 11:23 AM PaulK has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by ringo, posted 03-02-2018 12:23 PM Phat has responded
 Message 5 by jar, posted 03-02-2018 12:36 PM Phat has responded

  
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1878
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 3 of 17 (829069)
03-02-2018 11:55 AM


Thread Copied from Coffee House Forum
Thread copied here from the Godís witness ? thread in the Coffee House forum.
    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15414
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 4 of 17 (829070)
03-02-2018 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Phat
03-02-2018 11:51 AM


Re: Human Nature
Phat writes:

I was always taught (and believed) that standing for something was better than falling for just anything (or nothing).


By that logic, it's better to stand for the "wrong" gods than to be unsure of which gods, if any, are real.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Phat, posted 03-02-2018 11:51 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 03-03-2018 4:53 PM ringo has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


(3)
Message 5 of 17 (829071)
03-02-2018 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Phat
03-02-2018 11:51 AM


Re: Human Nature
Phat writes:

I was always taught (and believed) that standing for something was better than falling for just anything (or nothing).

You can stand for feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, sheltering the homeless, comforting the sorrowful, healing the sick and protecting the weak. Those all make sense and those all need support.

GOD does need support or anyone to stand.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios † † My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Phat, posted 03-02-2018 11:51 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Phat, posted 03-03-2018 5:02 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11322
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 6 of 17 (829124)
03-03-2018 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by ringo
03-02-2018 12:23 PM


Re: Human Nature
ringo writes:

By that logic, it's better to stand for the "wrong" gods than to be unsure of which gods, if any, are real.

And you live by your credo. Your life is so based on evidence that you would stand forever...if necessary...waiting for the evidence and never choose to believe anything.

I had no fear that I would somehow choose the wrong god. In my belief there is only one of them anyway, so the decision is to basically either choose or not choose pending evidence. What your sentence should say is this:

By that logic, its better to choose than to wait for evidence.
Which, by the way, you long ago chose not to do.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ĖRC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ĖMark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by ringo, posted 03-02-2018 12:23 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by ringo, posted 03-04-2018 1:17 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11322
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 7 of 17 (829128)
03-03-2018 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
03-02-2018 12:36 PM


Re: Human Nature and Atheism
GOD does need support or anyone to stand.
The question is whether God cares whether or not we acknowledge her. You have gone on record as stating that she does not. I maintain that she does. I have no argument with tending to the least of these...that's standing for doing all that we can.

On a mental (and spiritual) health level, I am also arguing that we need to feel a connection with our Creator.

You, of course, will probably ask what you always ask...namely How would we know that we were communicating with God rather than indigestion or internal warm fuzzies. My response? We would simply have to go by belief and faith.

There has never been any evidence. That's what faith is all about.

And this answers the topic: A Mormon has no better knowledge than does a Christian or a Buddhist or an atheist. Most of the religious folks care...and need some sort of internal peace about who they are working for. The atheists need no such verification and don't even consider it.

It would be interesting to get a survey on the number of atheists feeding the homeless and sheltering them versus religious folk. One thing is sure...they wouldn't care WHO they were working for.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ĖRC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ĖMark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by jar, posted 03-02-2018 12:36 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by jar, posted 03-03-2018 5:09 PM Phat has responded
 Message 9 by Rrhain, posted 03-03-2018 11:26 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 8 of 17 (829130)
03-03-2018 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Phat
03-03-2018 5:02 PM


Re: Human Nature and Atheism
So you agree it is the humans with the need?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios † † My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Phat, posted 03-03-2018 5:02 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Phat, posted 03-04-2018 4:18 PM jar has responded

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 9 of 17 (829163)
03-03-2018 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Phat
03-03-2018 5:02 PM


Re: Human Nature and Atheism
Phat writes:

quote:
It would be interesting to get a survey on the number of atheists feeding the homeless and sheltering them versus religious folk.

So atheists paying taxes to the government that is then used for programs that feed the homeless and sheltering them doesn't count?

It only counts if you have a dedicated program based upon your theist position? It only counts as an atheist helping someone if they help "in the name of atheism"?

Johns Hopkins Hospital was created specifically to have a hospital that wasn't affiliated with a church. Does that count?


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Phat, posted 03-03-2018 5:02 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Phat, posted 03-04-2018 4:19 AM Rrhain has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11322
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 10 of 17 (829178)
03-04-2018 4:19 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Rrhain
03-03-2018 11:26 PM


Re: Human Nature and Atheism
So atheists paying taxes to the government that is then used for programs that feed the homeless and sheltering them doesn't count?
No. Checkbooks don't impress me.
It only counts if you have a dedicated program based upon your theist position? It only counts as an atheist helping someone if they help "in the name of atheism"?
No. It counts if the worker is doing work towards the general cause that I mentioned. Who they are doing it under is irrelevant.
Johns Hopkins Hospital was created specifically to have a hospital that wasn't affiliated with a church.
I did not know that. Interesting.
Does that count?

First we have to come to an agreement of how we could even gather such information. I'm just curious if the numbers of those doing for the least of these, jars charge, are consistent across all types of people.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ĖRC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ĖMark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Rrhain, posted 03-03-2018 11:26 PM Rrhain has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 03-04-2018 7:16 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 11 of 17 (829182)
03-04-2018 7:16 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Phat
03-04-2018 4:19 AM


Re: Human Nature and Atheism
Phat writes:

I'm just curious if the numbers of those doing for the least of these, jars charge, are consistent across all types of people.

Paying taxes to support filling the general needs certainly meets any of my conditions. When we work together through taxes and other contributions to feed the hungry, protect the weak, clothe the naked, comfort the sorrowful, heal the sick and educate the children we are doing what Jesus told us to do. We are also doing what we should do regardless of any religious beliefs.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios † † My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Phat, posted 03-04-2018 4:19 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Phat, posted 03-04-2018 9:32 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11322
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 12 of 17 (829184)
03-04-2018 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
03-04-2018 7:16 AM


Re: Human Nature and Atheism
Based on that criteria, anyone who pays taxes is indirectly doing the "will of God".

In my opinion, there are too many loopholes.

Since the rich pay most of the taxes, are they doing the will of God through their taxes?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ĖRC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ĖMark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 03-04-2018 7:16 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by jar, posted 03-04-2018 9:43 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 15 by ringo, posted 03-04-2018 1:22 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 13 of 17 (829185)
03-04-2018 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Phat
03-04-2018 9:32 AM


Re: Human Nature and Atheism
Phat writes:

Based on that criteria, anyone who pays taxes is indirectly doing the "will of God".

In my opinion, there are too many loopholes.

Since the rich pay most of the taxes, are they doing the will of God through their taxes?

You place to much emphasis on "doing the will of God" when the fact is not one of us even has a clue what that is or anyway to determine what the will of God is.

When people pay taxes they are doing for "the least of these my brothers."

When the rich pay taxes they are doing what Jesus said we should do.

The "will of God" is just another of those word salad catch phrases so popular and effective on Madison Avenue and the Midway.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios † † My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Phat, posted 03-04-2018 9:32 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15414
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 14 of 17 (829208)
03-04-2018 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Phat
03-03-2018 4:53 PM


Re: Human Nature
Phat writes:

Your life is so based on evidence that you would stand forever...if necessary...waiting for the evidence and never choose to believe anything.


It isn't about evidence. It's about probability. The probability is that you will "choose" the god that was presented to you by your culture. There is no guarantee that that god has any relation to "the real God", if such a thing even exists. If you were really making a choice, you'd examine the other possibilities before jumping on the first one.

Phat writes:

In my belief there is only one of them anyway, so the decision is to basically either choose or not choose....


That's a convenient and comforting doctrine that you've concocted for yourself. Can you bring yourself to actually swallow it or are you just whistling in the dark?

Phat writes:

What your sentence should say is this: By that logic, its better to choose than to wait for evidence.


No.

The logic of any-choice-is-better-than-no-choice is the logic of leaping without looking.


An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 03-03-2018 4:53 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15414
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 15 of 17 (829211)
03-04-2018 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Phat
03-04-2018 9:32 AM


Re: Human Nature and Atheism
Phat writes:

Since the rich pay most of the taxes, are they doing the will of God through their taxes?


quote:
Luke21:1-4 And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury. And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites. And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all: For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.

It isn't about how much you give. It's about how much you hold back - and that doesn't just apply to cash.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Phat, posted 03-04-2018 9:32 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
1
2Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2018