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Author Topic:   Religious Special Pleading
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 1 of 357 (829174)
03-04-2018 3:16 AM


I find myself getting less and less tolerant of the special pleading of those holding religious beliefs. I'm a secularist that believes that our society is weakened by concessions made to superstion.
We allow Jews and Muslims to mutilate boys, which for any other reason would be an imprisonable offence.
(I'm watching the Icelandic attempt to ban circumcision with interest. Iceland law to outlaw male circumcision sparks row over religious freedom | Circumcision | The Guardian).
We ban female genital mutilation but don't enforce the ban.
We allow a part of our country - Northern Ireland - to deny women rights that the rest of our country hold (abortion).
We shy away from interfering with religious practices such as Shariah which are plainly against the values of our society as a whole.
Today I hear that a London coroner is being challenged in the High Court for refusing to prioritise Jewish burials over any other burial.
quote:
A Jewish burial service has called for a senior London coroner to be removed after accusing her of causing anguish and trauma by bureaucratic delays in a dispute over religious rules for the dead.
The service has made an official complaint against Mary Hassell, senior coroner for inner north London, saying many of her imposed rules, bureaucracy, inflexibility and unnecessary delays offend traditional and/or religious practices.
The move came after Hassell said no death will be prioritised in any way over any other because of the religion of the deceased or family. She has also suggested members of her staff have been bullied or intimidated by Jewish community representatives.
Jewish society calls for removal of London coroner over burial delay | Religion | The Guardian
Religions exist within an overall rule of law which seeks to be fair to all. Religions that prefer their own rules to society's and indeed believe them to be above the secular law are damaging to society as a whole. We've seen this in Christian belief systems around the world where the institutions valued their own 'law' to secular law by covering up child abuse almost universally.
I think we're making progress - recent law changes allowing gay marriage are an example - but it seems painfully slow.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 03-04-2018 4:03 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 5 by nwr, posted 03-04-2018 1:36 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 6 by ringo, posted 03-04-2018 1:43 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 4 of 357 (829179)
03-04-2018 4:24 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
03-04-2018 4:03 AM


Re: Cut and Print
Phat writes:
Circumcision is not limited to religious practice. Most males in the United States were circumcised by the hospital after birth.
Circumcision is almost exclusively related to religious practice in the 21st century. The reasons for supposedly non-religious circumcision are werd, wild and wacky. The major one being masturbation, which itself originates in religious ideas.
quote:
At the same time circumcisions were advocated on men, clitoridectomies (removal of the clitoris) were also performed for the same reason (to treat female masturbators). The US "Orificial Surgery Society" for female "circumcision" operated until 1925, and clitoridectomies and infibulations would continue to be advocated by some through the 1930s. As late as 1936, L. E. Holt, an author of pediatric textbooks, advocated male and female circumcision as a treatment for masturbation.[58]
One of the leading advocates of circumcision was John Harvey Kellogg. He advocated the consumption of Kellogg's corn flakes to prevent masturbation, and he believed that circumcision would be an effective way to eliminate masturbation in males.
History of circumcision - Wikipedia
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 03-04-2018 4:03 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Faith, posted 03-04-2018 1:48 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 8 of 357 (829223)
03-04-2018 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Faith
03-04-2018 1:48 PM


Re: Cut and Print
Apologies...

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Faith, posted 03-04-2018 1:48 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 9 of 357 (829229)
03-04-2018 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by ringo
03-04-2018 1:43 PM


Ringo writes:
When you start banning religious practices, you open the door to banning cultural practices in general.
Slippery slope arguments are always wrong in Western democracies. Banning harmful practices does not 'open the door' to banning harmless ones.
Note how "Christmas" trees are frowned on by the political correctness fanatics even though they have nothing to do with Christianity.
With the exception of totalitariast regimes nobody is ever going to ban Christmas trees are they? Once a year a few nutters with make a slow news day, that's all.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by ringo, posted 03-04-2018 1:43 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by ringo, posted 03-04-2018 2:56 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 11 of 357 (829237)
03-04-2018 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by ringo
03-04-2018 2:56 PM


Ringo writes:
Who decides what's "harmful" and what's "harmless"?
Our secular institutions. That's their job.
I suspect that you would if you thought they were "harmful".
I would only think they were harmul if they actually caused harm
But you're missing the point. The point is that the "harmful" practices are not necessarily religious in nature.
That's rather obvious. I'm not fond of any harmful practice, but here we're talking about harmful religious practices.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by ringo, posted 03-04-2018 2:56 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by NoNukes, posted 03-05-2018 12:35 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 20 by ringo, posted 03-06-2018 11:07 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 13 of 357 (829275)
03-05-2018 4:34 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by NoNukes
03-05-2018 12:35 AM


NoNukes writes:
What do your secular institutions say about circumcision?
It totally bans female circumcision and it very belatedly bans people traveling to countries that practice it to get it done. It has been very lax in enforcing the latter.
Male circumcision is ignored (except in Iceland). But why? If the practice had not existed and was attempted to be brought in today, it would not be possible.
We allow a harmful practice purely for supersticious religious reasons.
I remember looking into this a couple of years ago for an argument here, and I was unable to uncover much pro/con on the practice healthwise with there being some disputable minor advantages to being circumcised for some folk. I don't see much of a reason for the state to be involved. We would not want the state involved in gender changing surgery decisions.
The only reason for this practice is religious. All the rationalisation therafter can be ignored. The issue then becomes whether it's a necessary medical procedure, no, and whether it's harmful - yes.
Is this simply a case of personal animus?
Yes, I personally dislike most silly religious beliefs, but putting that aside, is the practice harmful to individuals and society? I think so, we allow a primitive, divisive and personally harmful practice to continue. Why?
With regard to the religious implications, the New Testament is pretty clear that it is not a required religious practice for non-Jews, but at least at the time I was a kid, it was very widely practiced.
And now only continues in religious communities. Why, if it had benefits apart from reducing the 'harmful' effects of masturbation by making the penis less sensitive, has it been discontinued?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by NoNukes, posted 03-05-2018 12:35 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by NoNukes, posted 03-05-2018 11:55 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 27 by ICANT, posted 03-06-2018 2:26 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 18 of 357 (829295)
03-05-2018 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by NoNukes
03-05-2018 11:55 AM


NoNukes writes:
My question is directed at whether or not the practice of male circumcision is harmful.
In absolute terms, of course it is. It's surgery, all surgery carries risk. People can and do die from circumcision, about 229 in the USA per year.
Circumcision Deaths
Circumcision is not necessary for health so circumcising boys for purely religious reasons is harmful.
You say it is. But is that any kind of official position. I haven't been able to find any such thing, and I did try
The official position is 'don't interfere'. But it's very easy to find harm, just read the wiki.
Circumcision - Wikipedia
My test is 'if it hadn't always been practiced, would we allow it today'? Outside those situations where there is a medical necessities or a benefit such as in Sub-Saharan Africa where it seems to help, you'd have to say we wouldn't.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by NoNukes, posted 03-05-2018 11:55 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 25 of 357 (829384)
03-06-2018 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by ringo
03-06-2018 11:07 AM


ringo writes:
I think the job of our institutions is to follow the public will, not dictate its practices.
The job of our institutions is to protect all of society and improve our society. It balances personal freedoms against public harm.
We're talking about cultural practices that can be used to target specific religious groups.
Jews have informed me very forceably that circumcision is a religious practice, not a cultural practice. And why would we not prevent harm just because it occurs within a religious community? That makes no sense at all. Is it ok for a religious group to sacrifice virgins to their sun god?
By declaring certain practices like circumcision "harmful", you can excuse discrimination against the people who practice them.
No. Things are not 'declared' harmful, they either are or are not. Cutting an infants penis is a harm.
Why not let the individual decide what's "harmful" to him?
I would be very happy with that outcome. At the age of 18, indivuals can decide whether they want their dicks hacked - or not.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by ringo, posted 03-06-2018 11:07 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by ICANT, posted 03-06-2018 2:30 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 36 by ringo, posted 03-07-2018 2:48 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 26 of 357 (829385)
03-06-2018 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by NoNukes
03-06-2018 1:30 PM


NoNukes writes:
What I asked others, and what I now ask you is for evidence that circumcision is harmful.
Apparently, nobody is willing to do more than assert that circumcision is harmful. Is everyone going to join the Coyote heap on that issue?
You obviously missed my reply at 18 above.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by NoNukes, posted 03-06-2018 1:30 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by NoNukes, posted 03-06-2018 8:07 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 29 of 357 (829396)
03-06-2018 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by ICANT
03-06-2018 2:26 PM


Re: Circumcision
ICANT writes:
What are the benefits of circumcision?
There is some evidence that circumcision has health benefits, including
I have already pointed out that there are benefits and given a link to them.
The point is that the practice is not done for incidental benefit, it's done for religious reasons. Modern societies recognise that the harm caused by circumcision overcomes any notional gain.
Would this practice be allowed today if it had never been practiced - of course not.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by ICANT, posted 03-06-2018 2:26 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by ringo, posted 03-07-2018 2:50 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 30 of 357 (829397)
03-06-2018 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by ICANT
03-06-2018 2:30 PM


Re: Decide for me
ICANT writes:
So you believe that the government knows what you need better than you do.
That's not the purpose of government. It's their job to balance needs of individuals against society as a whole, not do everything I demand of it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by ICANT, posted 03-06-2018 2:30 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 32 of 357 (829432)
03-07-2018 3:44 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by NoNukes
03-06-2018 8:07 PM


NoNukes writes:
I did not see it before. I don't think it answers much now that I have seen it. What about it does not apply equally well to dental implants, or breast reduction surgery, or a nose job? What suggests that the state should be involved in stopping the practice of circumcision but not tattooing?
Haven't you forgotten consent?
If an adult wants elective/cosmetic surgery with all its risks, then ok, so long as it's within the law - ie done by a regulated practitioner. But I would not allow it for babies and children. If an adult wishes to hack off his foreskin for absurd religious reasons, I raise my eyebrows, sigh deeply and walk away but if it's done to a baby I want the police called.
(Oh, and btw, if an adult wants elective surgery he should present an insurance certificate to guarantee payment for anything that goes wrong as a result - I don't want to be paying for his recovery with what you Americans call your tax dollars.)

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by NoNukes, posted 03-06-2018 8:07 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by NoNukes, posted 03-07-2018 4:03 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 34 of 357 (829435)
03-07-2018 6:51 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by NoNukes
03-07-2018 4:03 AM


NoNukes writes:
No, I haven't forgotten consent.
Then you will be aware that Jewish law requires circumcision of babies within 8 days of birth and.....
quote:
the punishment for not being circumcised in rabbinic Judaism is believed to be "Karet", being cut off; meaning premature death at the hand of G-d (Mo'ed Katan 28a) and a severe spiritual punishment, the "soul's being cut off," and not being granted a share in the world to come (Hilchot Teshuvah 8:1,5).
However, as I understand it, circumcision is performed by regulated practitioners and is believed to have a medical purpose as well as a religious one.
Please read the above and tell me that the practice is not purely religious. Any assumed medical benefits are post-fact rationalisations and circumcision would occur without them. For individuals where there is a demonstrable medical benefit, circumcision is obviously not a problem, regardless of religion. If there was a proven overall benefit for male circumcision it would be practiced at a population level; instead the practice was ceased outside religions. They did so presumably because its an unnecessary operation carrying cost and risk - including over 200 deaths per year in the US alone.
For that reason, it might well be reasonable for an adult to elect that for his child.
Knowing the risk, would you circumcise your child? Do you think that if we'd never done this to children we'd start doing it now?
For that reason, it migIn my opinion, the issue is a close one, and for now, the state seems to stay out of it.
Can you think of a reason why the state has stayed out of it?
It's something that is bubbling under the surface and with pop up every now and then. Iceland is the current example.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by NoNukes, posted 03-07-2018 4:03 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by NoNukes, posted 03-07-2018 8:25 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 39 of 357 (829450)
03-07-2018 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by ringo
03-07-2018 2:48 PM


ringo writes:
What about female circumcision? It's far from universal among Muslims. It seems to be tied to the culture - primarily African culture - rather than the religion.
I really don't care whether it's cultural or religious - it's harmful, extremely harmful. Why do you think the distinction matters? Whether something is cultural or religious seems to be a matter for those that believe in such things - but there's no denying the inter-linkages. The end result is harm and it needs preventing reagardless.
Why would we not let the individual decide what is harmful to him?
Because in the case of the Jewish belief the victim is less than 8 days old.
We don't let a child decide whether lack of education is harmful to him. His parents decide.
We do not - not in civilised countries anyway. Education is mandatory in this one, parental consent or otherwise.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by ringo, posted 03-07-2018 2:48 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by ringo, posted 03-07-2018 3:52 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 40 of 357 (829451)
03-07-2018 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by ringo
03-07-2018 2:50 PM


Re: Circumcision
ringo writes:
So you're against it because it's religious, not because it's supposedly harmful.
I am against it because it's harmful, if there was no harm, why would I care? I raise it here because the harm is caused for religious reasons and the thread is about religious special pleading.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by ringo, posted 03-07-2018 2:50 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
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