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Author Topic:   Will The Real God Please Stand Up?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 242 of 364 (828080)
02-09-2018 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by ringo
02-08-2018 12:01 PM


Re: Committee Still In Session Eleven Years Later
OK strike my comment from the record. Continue with your cross-examinations.
Jesus had no photo ID. I recommend admitting him based on his own personal recognizance. You are free to dismiss him and call another wanna-be deity from among the pantheon in the gallery.
Keep in mind, however, that we are looking for a Deity with no evidence.
Shall we conclude absence and dismiss these proceedings, or will we keep looking?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by ringo, posted 02-08-2018 12:01 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by ringo, posted 02-10-2018 11:26 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 244 of 364 (828110)
02-10-2018 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by ringo
02-10-2018 11:26 AM


Re: Committee Still In Session Eleven Years Later
Oh there are plenty of candidates. there is just no evidence that any of them are our Deity. I maintain that evidence is not the only standard to be applied.
Lacking much solid evidence, how should this committee proceed? We do have the opportunity to interview each candidate. The spaghetti monster is getting long stares from everyone since we have not yet broke for lunch.
Sophia wisely proclaims that we should be allowed to go across the street to the hamburger stand.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by ringo, posted 02-10-2018 11:26 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by ringo, posted 02-10-2018 11:47 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 246 of 364 (829279)
03-05-2018 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by ringo
02-10-2018 11:47 AM


Re: Committee Still In Session Eleven Years Later
I'm not convinced that my Deity is hiding from us. More likely, we are incapable of quantifying/defining Her.
Creativity seems to require intelligence rather than random processes. Case in point: Nobody has yet burped out Shakespeare. It takes intention to write creatively...
Our only example is human behavior.
Thus we are faced with anthropomorphizing God.
quote:
How does the Bible use anthropomorphism to talk about God?
The word anthropomorphism comes from the Greek words anthropos (man) and morphe (form). In theology, the term anthropomorphism includes the idea of referring to God by human characteristics. Though God is Spirit, Scripture sometimes speaks of Him in human terms to describe some of His actions in ways humans can understand.
For example, God is said to have a "face." He sets His face against evil (Leviticus 20:6). Numbers 6:25 refers to God making His face shine upon us.
God is also referred to as having "hands" on many occasions. In Exodus 7:5 God says, "I stretch out my hand against Egypt." In Isaiah 23:11, "He has stretched out his hand over the sea."
The psalmist referred to God having arms: "you scattered your enemies with your mighty arm" (Psalm 89:10b). Deuteronomy 4:34 and 5:15, as well as other passages, mention God's "outstretched arm."
Scripture also refers to God's "eyes." We read that, "The eyes of the Lord" are on the righteous (Psalm 34:15). And God keeps his eyes on the land (Deuteronomy 11:12).
In prayer, those in Scripture sometimes refer to God's ears. For example, 2 Kings 19:16 says, "Incline your ear, O Lord, and hear." Nehemiah 1:6 includes, "let your ear be attentive."
Some passages even refer to God's feet. For example, Isaiah 66:1 says, "Thus says the LORD:'Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool '"
In addition to physical attributes, God is often referred to as having various emotions that are also considered anthropomorphisms. Some of these include God's sorrow (Genesis 6:6), His jealousy (Exodus 20:5), His grief (Isaiah 54:6), and His anger (Psalm 7:11).
Many of these references are used to help readers understand a concept God was attempting to convey. However, it is clear God does not have a physical body like a human. Instead, Jesus Christ came to earth as God in human form (John 1:1) in order to both identify with humanity and to die as a sacrifice for the sins of people on their behalf.
While anthropomorphism can serve in helpful ways to better understand God's attributes, it is important not to interpret these human characteristics to mean God the Father exists in human form. As Isaiah 55:8-9 notes, "'For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,' declares the LORD. 'For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.'"
This gives Lady Wisdom an opportunity. Call her up on the stand next.
Edited by Phat, : added quote

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by ringo, posted 02-10-2018 11:47 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by ringo, posted 03-06-2018 11:35 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 247 of 364 (829280)
03-05-2018 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by jar
01-27-2007 12:01 PM


We Cant Argue With This Basic Construct
The Construct writes:
If GOD exists, She exists regardless of any evidence She does not exist.
If GOD doesn't exist, It doesn't exist regardless of evidence It does exist.
Corrolary:
  • GOD either exists or does not exist.
  • Humans do not create such a GOD, by definition.
  • IF GOD exists, GOD is likely not anthropomorphized.
    So where does this leave Jesus?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 137 by jar, posted 01-27-2007 12:01 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 248 by jar, posted 03-05-2018 11:01 AM Phat has replied
     Message 252 by dwise1, posted 03-05-2018 1:29 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 249 of 364 (829282)
    03-05-2018 11:12 AM
    Reply to: Message 248 by jar
    03-05-2018 11:01 AM


    Re: We Cant Argue With This Basic Construct
    jar writes:
    But there is another corollary from what you posted; that GOD if GOD exists is unlikely be to like anything imagined by man.
    If our human imaginations are so limited, why was the god in Genesis 11 so afraid of our collective imagination?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 248 by jar, posted 03-05-2018 11:01 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 250 by jar, posted 03-05-2018 11:24 AM Phat has not replied
     Message 251 by dwise1, posted 03-05-2018 11:47 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 253 of 364 (829297)
    03-05-2018 4:24 PM
    Reply to: Message 252 by dwise1
    03-05-2018 1:29 PM


    Just So
    jar writes:
    The God in Genesis 11 is just a character the author(s) created, a plot device.
    Like Genesis 2&3 Gen 11 is another Just So story; the tale of why everyone does not speak the same language.
    The moment after I typed that this morning, I knew almost what your response was going to be. But it does not explain anything more than that anytime we talk about God or speculate on what he would say or what He would do all we are doing is writing our own plot...which is not exactly what I wanted to hear. I believe that God if God exists is much more than I can describe Him as.
    dWise1 writes:
    If some supernatural entity does happen to exist, it would be far beyond human ability to understand, let alone detect or be able to prove or to disprove. We cannot even detect the supernatural nor determine whether the supernatural even exists, so could we ever possibly know anything about supernatural entities except for what we dream up? Even if such an entity were to attempt to communicate with us (ie, Revelation), what it would have to say would be go so far over our heads as to be virtually unintelligible -- and in the case that it kept every extremely simple for our sakes, why then should we have the extreme arrogance to describe it and its wishes in such extreme detail, details which we actually just made up along the way.
    Forgive my arrogance. I happen to believe that God is capable of communicating to us and through us at our level of understanding.
    . For the sake of this topic, however...allow me to attempt my own modern just so story, starring humanity and God. (A modern twist to Genesis 11) Perhaps thats what God wanted us to do all along---attempt to write our own plots. (My story will be ready later on, after i work)

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 252 by dwise1, posted 03-05-2018 1:29 PM dwise1 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 254 by dwise1, posted 03-05-2018 7:39 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 274 by Phat, posted 03-07-2018 5:16 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 266 of 364 (829350)
    03-06-2018 11:40 AM
    Reply to: Message 261 by Faith
    03-06-2018 7:09 AM


    Re: Just So
    I read a bit about him. He does have good credentials!
    quote:
    Athanasius is counted as one of the four great Eastern Doctors of the Church in the Roman Catholic Church.[3] In the Eastern Orthodox Church, he is labeled as the "Father of Orthodoxy". Some Protestants label him as "Father of the Canon". Athanasius is venerated as a Christian saint, whose feast day is 2 May in Western Christianity, 15 May in the Coptic Orthodox Church, and 18 January in the other Eastern Orthodox Churches. He is venerated by the Oriental and Eastern Orthodox Churches, the Roman Catholic Church, the Lutherans, and the Anglican Communion.
    Acceptance of a basic canon is considered to be one of the expectations of whichever church one chooses to belong. This whole idea of simply framing the bible as a creation of humans means that our faith rests on human wisdom (or the lack thereof).
    jar writes:
    So you agree that what you mean is that those who believe what you believe (do so) except when they do not believe what you believe.
    Yes Faith, we believe you believe that.
    She claims to be able to recognize truth within scriptures rather than simply interpreting them with human wisdom.
    Keep in mind that the Chicago bunch is quite large and numerous...no mere splinter cult there.
    jar writes:
    Yes Virginia, there are things that can be verified by comparing them to reality yet the basics of your cult starts off by a statement that you must consider a fantasy as the ultimate base for your beliefs.
    What statement are you referring to?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 261 by Faith, posted 03-06-2018 7:09 AM Faith has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 267 by ringo, posted 03-06-2018 11:46 AM Phat has replied
     Message 273 by jar, posted 03-06-2018 12:09 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 268 of 364 (829353)
    03-06-2018 11:49 AM
    Reply to: Message 265 by ringo
    03-06-2018 11:35 AM


    Re: Committee Still In Session Eleven Years Later
    Then why is She incapable of communicating Her presence to us?
    Perhaps "She" has tried numerous times and yet you reject any hint of authenticity due to lack of evidence. Your insistence on physical evidence may ultimately doom you to an eternity of waiting. But enough of this ongoing squabble. We have our courtroom. The candidates are still in the docket. And since today is my day off, I plan on writing my hypothetical Just So chapter after I run a few errands.
    As far as the Deity quantifying and/or defining Herself, have you no imagination? After all, some bozo concocted the spaghetti monster and yet here he sits in our docket awaiting confirmation. The least you could do is take the initiative to create a candidate of your own rather than seek to dismiss all contenders as if you owned the universe.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 265 by ringo, posted 03-06-2018 11:35 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 269 by ringo, posted 03-06-2018 11:58 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 270 of 364 (829356)
    03-06-2018 11:59 AM
    Reply to: Message 267 by ringo
    03-06-2018 11:46 AM


    Re: Just So
    You must live in Regina. I googled it. Nice inner church....plain on the outside...fancy on the inside

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 267 by ringo, posted 03-06-2018 11:46 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 271 of 364 (829357)
    03-06-2018 12:01 PM
    Reply to: Message 269 by ringo
    03-06-2018 11:58 AM


    Re: Committee Still In Session Eleven Years Later
    We're trying the suspects that we already have. I don't need to provide my own private suspect.
    I'm going with jars argument that even if GOD exists, humans basically create their own God. Thus, before you can dismiss one, you have to create/define them.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 269 by ringo, posted 03-06-2018 11:58 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 272 by ringo, posted 03-06-2018 12:09 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 276 by NoNukes, posted 03-07-2018 1:11 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 274 of 364 (829434)
    03-07-2018 5:16 AM
    Reply to: Message 253 by Phat
    03-05-2018 4:24 PM


    The Tower Of Google
    1 In the year 2018, the whole earth was of one internet, and of one United Nations.
    2 And it came to pass, as nation states arose from the east, that they found a plane in the land of the Amerikites; and they seized it and flew it into the mighty tall towers of Manhatten.
    3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make trouble for the Amerikites, for they are mighty and are hindering the progress of our own Nations. Let us fly into their five sided military headquarters and bring down the mighty financial towers that their economy might collapse and allow our people to gain their fair share of the worlds wealth.
    4 And they said, Go to, let us build our own tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
    5 And the Lord came down to see how the people of the world responded to the attacks of their brethren from across the sea.
    6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people of the west are united and angry., and they have all the dreadful weapons and financial means to repair their towers; and if they begin to make war, their economy shall overshadow the rest of my people on the planet and nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined doing.
    7 Go to, send angels to disrupt the internet and the financial system, and cause them to suspect one another, that they may not understand one another's speech. And the Lord also allowed satan to spread mistrust and competitive envy among the people.
    8 In these days, the people had no fear of the Lord, and many thought that He was imagined by others and did not actually exist. They had faith instead in their science and their human creative potential, and they ignored worshipping anything except their children to whom much was promised, and their money which they counted and stashed aside.
    9 Therefore is the name of it called Google; because the Lord did there confound the information of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 253 by Phat, posted 03-05-2018 4:24 PM Phat has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 275 by NoNukes, posted 03-07-2018 12:55 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 277 of 364 (829458)
    03-07-2018 5:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 275 by NoNukes
    03-07-2018 12:55 PM


    Re: The Tower Of Google
    oh yeah. My dates are off! Im trying to describe how the Bible would be written in the modern era...but I included 2001 as analogous to 2018!

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 275 by NoNukes, posted 03-07-2018 12:55 PM NoNukes has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 278 by ringo, posted 03-08-2018 10:53 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 280 of 364 (829504)
    03-08-2018 11:11 AM
    Reply to: Message 279 by jar
    03-08-2018 11:07 AM


    Re: The Tower Of Google
    not sure I follow. You are describing a God character that wants us to be as one...with or without Him. The whole idea is for the people and God to be in communion as one...not for the people themselves to become one without God.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 279 by jar, posted 03-08-2018 11:07 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 285 by jar, posted 03-08-2018 1:05 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 281 of 364 (829505)
    03-08-2018 11:13 AM
    Reply to: Message 278 by ringo
    03-08-2018 10:53 AM


    Re: The Tower Of Google
    You're portraying a God who's afraid of His own creation and has to make a pre-emptive strike to stop them from becoming too powerful.
    Not necessarily. If God is, he is quite capable of dealing with our power. He simply intervenes to protect us from ourselves...it is collective humanity (under no authority save ourselves) who threatens to become too powerful.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 278 by ringo, posted 03-08-2018 10:53 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 282 by ringo, posted 03-08-2018 11:34 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 283 of 364 (829507)
    03-08-2018 12:04 PM
    Reply to: Message 282 by ringo
    03-08-2018 11:34 AM


    Re: The Tower Of Google
    Does He need us to need Him?
    Nop. He wants us to seek Him. He does not want us to simply grow up and have no need of Him. Reason? Humans are imperfect. We have a destructive flaw.
    Too powerful for what?
    Too powerful for our own survival. Humanity without God will crash and burn.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 282 by ringo, posted 03-08-2018 11:34 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 284 by ringo, posted 03-08-2018 12:08 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
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