Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,807 Year: 3,064/9,624 Month: 909/1,588 Week: 92/223 Day: 3/17 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Creation
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 542 of 1482 (828248)
02-15-2018 1:25 AM
Reply to: Message 541 by ICANT
02-14-2018 11:33 PM


Re: Why NOT A Literal Bible?
They point out that if inflation, dark matter and dark energy which has never been observed, does not exist, there would be a fatal contradiction between the observations made by astronomers and the predictions of the BBT.
They state: "the big bang theory can't survive without these fudge factors."
I can imagine some folks signing this document while still accepting the evidence for the BBT, dark matter, dark energy, and inflation. So what should I make of the number of folks who signed the paper? Exactly what are their opinions?
I do recognize some fairly famous names on the list, and no I am not claiming that everyone on the list accepts the same science. But telling me that the list has a couple hundred people on it when most of them are not even cosmologists, and when signing the list means something different for some folks than for others, is not all that persuasive.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 541 by ICANT, posted 02-14-2018 11:33 PM ICANT has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 545 of 1482 (828262)
02-15-2018 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 543 by ICANT
02-15-2018 2:19 AM


Re: Bible
No. It only means that the universe was once smaller than it is now. A series of contractions and expansions would produce the same observations.
That would mean the universe was infinite, eternal, if that took place. But is ruled out because it would have already run out of energy without an endless supply of energy.
This exchange shows exactly why you should stick to being wrong about how to diagram a sentence, and why you should leave science to the serious scientists and to the amateurs who at least make try to read up on the matter.
If the universe has expanded from a smaller size, why would that make the universe eternal or infinite? Ringo's statement says nothing about the initial state of the universe at all, nor does it say anything about infinite expansion or the state of the universe today beyond it being bigger than at some other time.
But is ruled out because it would have already run out of energy without an endless supply of energy.
Can I see those computations, ICANT?
At least this time your statement is wrong. That's an improvement over past answers you've given that would cause a poor teaching assistant set your paper on fire.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 543 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2018 2:19 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 556 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2018 8:36 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 563 of 1482 (828388)
02-17-2018 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 556 by ICANT
02-15-2018 8:36 PM


Re: Bible
Let me try this and you tell me where I am wrong.
What's wrong here is that you changed the subject from an argument that the universe is infinite in expanse to an argument about whether the universe is eternal. Now given that I am not making the latter argument, what is the point of your current discussion?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 556 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2018 8:36 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 566 by ICANT, posted 02-17-2018 4:42 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 567 of 1482 (828439)
02-17-2018 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 566 by ICANT
02-17-2018 4:42 PM


Re: infinite
Well I always thought that infinite was a synonym of eternal.
Is that wrong also?
In general, yes. In this case in particular, "infinite in expanse" would refer to size rather than duration.
To please present the correct information?
Remember that time I spent a week trying to teach you about special relativity? I'm not going through that again. Watching you get science wrong is a lot more fun.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 566 by ICANT, posted 02-17-2018 4:42 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 568 by ICANT, posted 02-19-2018 12:04 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 569 of 1482 (828476)
02-19-2018 2:38 AM
Reply to: Message 568 by ICANT
02-19-2018 12:04 AM


Re: infinite
So I am correct that infinite is a synonym of eternal.
ICANT, I said the exact opposite of that. Infinite and eternal are not synonyms Infinite can refer to many things that are not time such as space, money, and an inability to grasp simple concepts. Your ability to not see a point appears to be nigh infinite.
I don't plan to go through a set of four or five corrections before coming to the conclusion that you are lying again, but no, you are not correct and I did not agree with you.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 568 by ICANT, posted 02-19-2018 12:04 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 570 by ICANT, posted 02-19-2018 1:51 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 582 by DrJones*, posted 02-20-2018 5:45 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 571 of 1482 (828485)
02-19-2018 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 570 by ICANT
02-19-2018 1:51 PM


Re: infinite
ICANT, apparently you cannot follow a thread. Let me replay your question and my answer.
ICAT writes:
Well I always thought that infinite was a synonym of eternal.
Is that wrong also?
NoNukes writes:
In general, yes. In this case in particular, "infinite in expanse" would refer to size rather than duration.
Yes, it is also wrong that infinite and eternal are synonyms. And in case that was unclear, I gave also gave you some detail about what was wrong with your supposition.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 570 by ICANT, posted 02-19-2018 1:51 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 572 by ICANT, posted 02-19-2018 6:31 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 576 of 1482 (828494)
02-20-2018 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 572 by ICANT
02-19-2018 6:31 PM


Re: infinite
If infinite is not a synonym of eternal why is it listed as a synonym of eternal in the references I gave you?
Sigh. Very few words have identical meanings. Infinite and eternal do not. Here are examples of sentences using the two words, in which the two words cannot be interchanged while retaining the meaning of the sentences.
1. The count of numbers smaller than 1 but greater than 0 is infinite.
2. The universe is neither infinite nor eternal.
3. As measured on an absolute hardness scale, the hardness of diamond is 1500, but the difficulty of an idea penetrating the head of ICANT is near infinity. 4. That means we might have to wait an eternity for him to learn anything. Yet he asks that I correct the erroneous statements that he makes.
5. Can a person be born today, live you an infinite time afterward, and yet be considered eternal?
6. After all, that person's existence does not extend infinitely into the past.
7. Can you distinguish between a universe that is infinitely large and one that is eternal? Or are those words identical in meaning.
You are equivocating. Your question about whether the two words were synonyms was actually an attempt to tell me that infinite could not be used to describe space rather than time. Instead of acknowledging that to be correct, and I will quote the dictionary below, you claim that the two are synonyms. Despite the fact that the context shows they are not identical in meaning.
quote:
infinite
adjective
limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate.
noun
a space or quantity that is infinite.
How are such equivocations different from lying? Particularly when they are deliberate.
You are dismissed. Not responding to you further on this topic.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 572 by ICANT, posted 02-19-2018 6:31 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 581 by ICANT, posted 02-20-2018 5:36 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 583 of 1482 (828538)
02-20-2018 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 582 by DrJones*
02-20-2018 5:45 PM


Re: infinite
i would say they are not synonyms when used in the context of a spacial dimensions which is something that ICant can't grasp
Any honest person would say that. ICant grasps whatever he wants to grasp. This is of a piece with that "Moses isn't a noun" crap he was spewing earlier.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 582 by DrJones*, posted 02-20-2018 5:45 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 585 by DrJones*, posted 02-20-2018 6:53 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 584 of 1482 (828539)
02-20-2018 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 581 by ICANT
02-20-2018 5:36 PM


Re: infinite
And if it is not ok with you who cares?
Apparently, you care, ICANT. For some reason, you are always asking me if you have the science or math right whenever you post some clearly wrong stuff that remotely resembles science. Perhaps you should not ask if you don't really want an answer.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 581 by ICANT, posted 02-20-2018 5:36 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 588 by ICANT, posted 02-21-2018 2:36 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 598 of 1482 (829411)
03-06-2018 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 597 by ICANT
03-06-2018 3:07 PM


Re: Bible
Moses did not have a word that could have been translated as expand or expansion.
Was he able to express the concept without having a word? Was he familiar with everyday things that he had to see growing and expanding if he was paying even the slightest bit of attention?
In short, what is the point of making arguments of this type?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 597 by ICANT, posted 03-06-2018 3:07 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 599 by ICANT, posted 03-06-2018 10:45 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 600 of 1482 (829429)
03-06-2018 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 599 by ICANT
03-06-2018 10:45 PM


Re: Bible
The point was that Moses used the best word he had to describe what he was trying to say.
He knew he could spread his tent out on the ground and then get inside and raise it up, or he could put poles up and spread it over the poles to form his tent in which he could get in and be out of the weather and especially the rain.
Moses would not be restricted to using a single word to communicate with. He did not have to use a tent as the example if he wanted to describe something that was not tent-like.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 599 by ICANT, posted 03-06-2018 10:45 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 601 by jar, posted 03-07-2018 6:55 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 602 of 1482 (829439)
03-07-2018 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 601 by jar
03-07-2018 6:55 AM


Re: Bible
But the author of the Moses character was still very ignorant but he was learning and had no idea what the reality of the universe was and believed that when he looked at the heavens he was looking at a solid screen like a tent or great blanket.
That might be a reasonable interpretation. What I find unreasonable is to try to twist Moses words into some other meaning and to then claim that science is finally coming around to matching what the Bible says.
In this case, ICANT is attempting to pretend that Moses had no choice but to use the wrong expression because of the limitations in his language and to then claim that what he really meant matches reality. There are two things wrong with his argument. First, we cannot take ICANTs naked assertions about ancient Hebrew as gospel. He also claims that Moses had no nouns. Secondly, Moses picked his analogy as best he could. If he really failed to describe what he was told or saw, then how should we decide what he meant?
As for the latter question, the way to decide cannot be to let the person here most ignorant about science make up an explanation and then say it is what scientist are now approaching or are wrong about. It takes one special kind of person to use that argument, and yet another one to buy into it.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 601 by jar, posted 03-07-2018 6:55 AM jar has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 607 of 1482 (829713)
03-12-2018 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 604 by ICANT
03-12-2018 12:50 PM


Re: Bible
By the way the distance is not expanding between the Milky Way galaxy and the Andromeda galaxy. They are on a collision course
Wow. Just wow.
Since they are on a collision course they could not have been produce out of the same BB. If they had been the space would be increasing between them instead of decreasing.
More Wow. After the big bang, then other forces in the universe can still change the trajectory of some objects.
Stop embarrassing yourself by offering opinions on subjects you do not understand. If the BBT is wrong, the explanation won't be related to the ridiculous stuff in this post of yours. Here is more along that same line of reasoning:
"The coffee cups in my cupboard are not moving apart. Hence the universe is not expanding." Pretty silly, eh?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 604 by ICANT, posted 03-12-2018 12:50 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 609 by ICANT, posted 03-20-2018 12:54 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 618 of 1482 (830153)
03-22-2018 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 616 by caffeine
03-20-2018 4:39 PM


Re: infinite
I retract my previous statement; as apparently NoNukes was correct. You were changing the subject from an argument that the universe is infinite in expanse to eternal.
I appreciate the retraction, but you were more right than wrong. I spent way too much time arguing with ICANT over that issue. ICANT's style of presentation is what it is. Getting irritated at his antics is pointless. And for what it's worth, scientists do not claim that the universe is either eternal or infinite. Accordingly, his argument is baseless.
When you wrestle with a pig, two things happen. You get all muddy, and the pig likes it.
Edited by NoNukes, : add some clarification about infinity

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 616 by caffeine, posted 03-20-2018 4:39 PM caffeine has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 662 of 1482 (831929)
04-27-2018 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 661 by Modulous
04-25-2018 5:37 PM


Re: Bible
Modulous writes:
The predictions in the Bible are not reliable - and indeed they don't predict how colliding particles will behave and at the same time, how the planet mercury behaves, and how light behaves, and how gravity behaves and....
So they aren't comparable in the way you are trying to present.
Wow. So much written to explain what ought to be obvious. Perhaps this exchange, lifted from an old physics thread, will illustrate the difficulty you are facing:
Rahvin writes:
Your math is based on Newtonian mechanics.
ICANT writes:
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication.
Perhaps a little empathy is in order?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
No it is based on math I studied in sixth grade, just plain old addition, substraction and multiplication. -- ICANT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 661 by Modulous, posted 04-25-2018 5:37 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 663 by ringo, posted 04-28-2018 12:01 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024