Religious Special Pleading

And, as I pointed out, the issue is not whether the harm is cultural or religious or whether there is actually a distinction, but that it is harm. For the purposes of this discussion we can happily stick to uncontroversial religious reasons. It's a long shot but this may limit the extent you wish to retreat to definitional waffle and tactical diversions. Try sticking to the core issue - if you can. Too bad. I'll do you a deal, don't mutilate babies and I won't trample on your perverse and harmful culture. Correct. In this case, the adults are harming children and our institutions are looking the other way. But I don't think this will survive another generation or two.

That depends on which particular religious nonsense you believe, but this - which I posted before - seems to be the formal position

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the punishment for not being circumcised in rabbinic Judaism is believed to be "Karet", being cut off; meaning premature death at the hand of G-d (Mo'ed Katan 28a) and a severe spiritual punishment, the "soul's being cut off," and not being granted a share in the world to come (Hilchot Teshuvah 8:1,5).

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I don't see how this makes a difference to anything. Those minority Jewish parents choosing to reject circumcision are doing the right thing. The remaining majority are harming their children. I have told you twice now that over 200 children die every year in the USA alone as a direct result of circumcision. You have obviously not read the link I provided containing the evidence. I paste a chunk of it below if you're unwilling to go to the link. There are very good reason why this number is under-reported. Doctors may not put the cause of death as circumcision, preferring instead to quote sepsis or meningitis or other consequencies of circumcision.

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Several doctors have given estimates of the number of deaths that occur each year. Douglas Gairdner reported 16-19 actual deaths a year in England and Wales from neonatal circumcisions in the 1940s.10 Sydney Gellis believed that "there are more deaths from complications of circumcision than from cancer of the penis.11 There are various figures for the number of deaths from penile cancer ranging from 200 to 480 deaths per year. Robert Baker estimated 229 deaths per year from circumcision in the United States.12 Bollinger estimated that approximately 119 infant boys die from circumcision-related each year in the U.S. (1.3% of all male neonatal deaths from all causes).52

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There are several case reports of death in the medical literature. These are deaths from various infections.2-5,13-15 Sauer reported the death of an 18-day-old infant from Staphylococcal bronco-pneumonia.5 Hiss et al. reported the death of an infant in Israel from haemorrhage and hypovolemic shock after ritual circumcision.21

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There are several newspaper accounts of boys who have died after circumcision. These are from bleeding and from complications of anesthesia.16-17,19-21,22-36

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Several coroner's reports of deaths from circumcision are known to exist.18 38 Demetrius Manker died from blood loss in Dade County, Florida on June 23, 1993.18 The coroner's report on the death of a previously healthy one-month-old infant, Ryleigh Roman Bryan McWillis, less that 48 hours after his circumcision,24 is available. Baby Ryleigh died of hypovolemic shock, after exsanguination caused by hemorrhage at the circumcision wound.38 39 Ryleigh's mother said, "I unplugged his life support at 5 a.m. on the 22nd of August, one month and one day after he was born."39

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Despite the abundant evidence of death from circumcision-related-causes, the March 2009 Circumcision Policy Statement of the American Academy of Pediatrics omitted any mention of possible death from circumcision-related-causes, thereby helping to keep American parents uninformed of the possibility of death following circumcision.

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Many African tribes have initation ceremonies in which a youth or young man is initiated into manhood. The youths are sent to a camp in a remote area where initiation ceremonies, including circumcision, take place. The circumcisions are carried out by persons without medical training. African tribal ritual circumcision produces reports of death or serious injury every year.28-36, 39,40 The Mail and Guardian reports seven dead in the Fall of 2003 and a total of 250 dead since 1995.36

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Amitai Moshe, age 8 days, went into cardiac arrest after a ritual circumcision at Golder's Green Synagogue, London. He was taken from the synagogue directly to hospital and died eight days later.43-45

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A family doctor in Ontario circumcised an unnamed healthy infant at seven days of age. The infant suffered multiple complications and died seven days later of hypoxic-ischemic encephalopathy.46

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Circumcision Deaths

You remain Jewish, that is only a function of being born to a Jewish mother. You are, however, not going to get to Jewish heaven. And your community may reject you. I have provided the benefits. There is a direct causal and immediate risk from circumcision. There are some future-based, benefits derived from correlations. Leaving the decision until the age of majority would make little difference to any future benefits. The balance is therefore against. The practice is also not done for any supposed benefits, it's purely religious. This is an odd argument. The facts are that the children die as a direct and immediate consequence of circumcision. Their deaths were not prevented. I've shown you the source of my numbers - perhaps you would care to do the same - and I've given you reasons why the numbers are understated.I have raised three points which have not even been attempted to be answered.1. Had this practice not existed, would it be allowed to start?
2. If you believe there to be benefits to circumcision would you do it to your child?
3. If there are positive benefits to circumcision why is it not a population-based health policy for all males?

Well that's a piece of luck, I'm not your government. Yeh, banning slavery was a disaster. And don't even start me on discrimination. That's fucking hilarous. You're comparing cicumcision with prohibition? Who exactly is going to get rich when circumcision is banned until the age of 18? Speakeasies for mohels?

So now we're comparing circumcision with herd vaccination for, what, mmr? Really? And I should just accept your sayso on this? Are you trying not to say that Jews actually circumcise for health benefits not for religious reasons? Correct, but maybe you're missing an essential point here? The parents are causing harm. Generally we do not allow that.You're still ignoring the 3 unanswered questions I note. I somehow don't think you're heart is in this one.

Jesus Faith, don't you read? Over 200 babies are killed every year in the USA alone as a direct result of circumcision.

I have thought it through and it appears that you think that 7 day old babies slice the end off their own penis. Oh sure - some mohels will carry on their work for the few fundamentalists but since when did we defer from trying to prevent a harmful practice because some criminals want to continue the harmful practice?

They don't need consent, according to you they're doing it to themselves. What nonsense. We allowed surgical abortion because it as deemed by society that women should have the right to it. And so....? We have laws which we change when we know more about harm and benefit. Circumcision is one of those things that is causing unnecessary harm to children who have no choice as to whether they have their dicks cut for a religion they know nothing about.

I guess when you said this, you actually meant A not B....so let's forget the whole thing and get back to the point. We've already agreed this. It's non-contraversial You tried to say that A should not be able harm B. Circumcision is unecessary harm to a child. If B want a lump of his dick removed, fine, let's wait until he can give his consent eh?

In this case B is a 7 day old child, so how can B do anything at all? Nothing works if you think Baby B can slice his own dick. I was wondering exactly the same of you. Baby B has not and can not give his consent. You're attempting an equivalence between education and penile mutilation? Really?

So, as I said, you entire A and B argument is total bollox, give it up. In the first (circumcision), consent is necessary because it involves only harm and risk. In the second (education) it is unnecessary because it is only beneficial.

You finally noticed the point of the entire discussion. I have provided the evidence - from medical practitioners - that it is harmful. 200+ deaths per year in the USA alone, directly attributable to circumcision.

Yes I know, I've pointed that out several times now. It's an unnecessary risk that adults are exposing 7 day old babies to for superstitious reasons. Many medical and lawmakers do agree with me. Now what?

Is conversation restricted to those who make laws now? You do love your repetitions don't you? All here agree that circumcision for medical reasons is perfectly fine. No need to bring it up again, eh? If it was banned, we wouldn't be haven't this discussion would we? Raising the consciousness of bad practices in the minds of others is how bad practices are stopped. It's already changing.

I do claim it is harmful 200+ unnecessary deaths in the US alone. I am waiting to be challenged on this. As I am on the other tests I've rised. What I'm getting in response is your usual divertionary nonsens. No attempt to challenge fact or bring your own evidence. Just flat contradiction.