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Author Topic:   Religious Special Pleading
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 7 of 357 (829218)
03-04-2018 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Tangle
03-04-2018 4:24 AM


Re: Cut and Print
You quoted me but I didn't say that. It was Phat. However, I agree with him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Tangle, posted 03-04-2018 4:24 AM Tangle has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 50 of 357 (829518)
03-08-2018 3:31 PM


How is circumcision harmful?
I don't get what's harmful about circumcision, there just seems to be an abstract objection to being "mutilated" and having it done against your will, but otherwise America is full of circumcised men who aren't complaining about it as far as I've heard.
Are you "mutilated" if your appendix is removed? Does the foreskin have any particular function that you think is a big loss if it's gone?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 55 of 357 (829527)
03-08-2018 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Modulous
03-08-2018 5:25 PM


Re: How is circumcision harmful?
I'd be mortified if I had to have it amputated. Could you imagine spending your life with your clitoris exposed rubbing up against your clothes every time you take a step. *shudder*
In the female case it would be irritating or painful, but I've never heard a circumcised man complain about that kind of experience.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 57 of 357 (829534)
03-08-2018 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Modulous
03-08-2018 6:37 PM


Re: How is circumcision harmful?
If circumcised men are not bothered by this I can only suppose their glans has become less sensitive due to constant stimulation of that region. That doesn't sound good, does it?
But nobody's ever complained about a lack of sensitivity either. Wouldn't we know if there was such a problem from circumcision? But I've never seen either kind of problem discussed anywhere. I conclude there is no problem.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 59 of 357 (829540)
03-08-2018 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Modulous
03-08-2018 9:05 PM


Re: How is circumcision harmful?
I can see that circumcision as an adult could cause problems but I'm not talking about that.
Resenting having your foreskin removed as an infant doesn't say anything about sensitivity.
I didn't have scientific studies in mind, I just thought we'd all know about something like this from the popular press, or even from personal experience, if it was a big deal, and that's what I meant about not seeing it discussed. If it interfered with a man's sex life I'd expect there to have been a big uprising and call for ending circumcision forthwith.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 61 of 357 (829542)
03-08-2018 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Modulous
03-08-2018 10:17 PM


Re: How is circumcision harmful?
"Feeling harmed" isn't what I was asking about, that's different from actually being harmed.
OK I didn't know there is an uprising going on. But the guys in the second video aren't talking about any personal sense of harm, it's all abstract, the foreskin is necessary because.... They are protesting an idea rather than an actual harm.
But that's OK, I can go with a law against circumcision for nonreligious reasons, but although there is really no reason for Jewish circumcision either since Christ came, I wouldn't want to prohibit it for them. It's really a political issue, there really isn't any harm, so let it be the parents' choice.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 122 of 357 (829909)
03-16-2018 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Tangle
03-16-2018 2:41 PM


Why do hospitals circumcise infants anyway? Isn't that the job of the rabbis?

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 136 of 357 (829992)
03-19-2018 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Astrophile
03-19-2018 7:38 PM


If Jews weren't circumcised, would it make any difference to the practice of their religion? Would it make being Jewish impossible if the Jews took to delaying the operation until the boy or man was of an age to decide for himself whether he wanted to be circumcised?
Yes, it would make a huge difference because circumcision is THE sign of their Jewishness, their belonging to Jehovah, decreed by God to Abraham, and decreed to be done on the 8th day after birth.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 243 of 357 (830820)
04-07-2018 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by Modulous
04-07-2018 5:35 PM


I would think that being a bone fide member of the Jewish community ought to qualify as "necessary for the welfare of the individual affected."

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 245 of 357 (830824)
04-07-2018 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by Modulous
04-07-2018 6:47 PM


That is likely only true for the nominal or merely ethnic Jews who don't believe in their religious heritage anyway.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 247 of 357 (830831)
04-07-2018 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by Modulous
04-07-2018 7:53 PM


Well, that's a modern revisionist idea there because the Torah itself says circumcision is the mark by which a Jew is known as a Jew. Whether one personally "feels" one's Jewishness or not does not enter into it. The idea would be laughed to death in ancient Israel, and the person saying it probsably cast out of the community.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 249 of 357 (830854)
04-08-2018 2:34 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by Modulous
04-07-2018 8:29 PM


Regardless, they follow Judaism, live in Israel, are ethnically Jewish, uncircumcised and their welfare has not been compromised.
Hooray for them, but they aren't the standard. It's the orthodox Torah-following Jews who set the standard.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 256 of 357 (830904)
04-08-2018 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Tangle
04-08-2018 3:48 AM


The formal position of the religion though is that male babies must be circumcised. If we accept that this process causes harm to the baby - and it's impossible not to given the evidence - how can it be 'necessary for the welfare of the indivdual affected'?
Are you implying that the uncircumcised child will be ostracised by the Jewish community?
I have no idea how the community would respond, I only know that circumcision is prescribed in the Torah as necessary to being one of the Chosen People and that the orthodox take all that very seriously. It certainly affects the status of the child in the eyes of the community.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 260 of 357 (830914)
04-08-2018 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by Modulous
04-08-2018 8:25 PM


But welfare can be a psychological thing too, not just a literal situation. Knowing you are bona fide according to the Torah in an orthodox Jewish family context surely has to count as welfare.

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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 265 of 357 (830966)
04-09-2018 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by Modulous
04-09-2018 2:20 PM


Late circumcision is of course OK for new converts, but God threatened Moses because he hadn't had his grown sons circumcised. They were accepted then of course, but obviously infant circumcision was God's decree and putting it off is sin. And especially if you put it off to accommodate to worldly principles you are very much in sin.
You cannot obey mere human laws when they contradict God's law. Otherwise of course we must obey them.
Of course I don't believe the Old Testament laws are in force any more anyway because Christ fulfilled them all, but I'm arguing this from the point of view of a Jewish Torah follower who would be deeply offended, and also compromised personally, by a law against his religion.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Modulous, posted 04-09-2018 2:20 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
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