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Author Topic:   Evolution. We Have The Fossils. We Win.
Percy
Member
Posts: 22480
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 1369 of 2887 (829780)
03-13-2018 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1367 by Faith
03-13-2018 4:34 PM


Re: A knife-edge thick contact is NOT an inch thickEros
The nature of the inch-wide something doesn't really bear on the key issues - it's just something I find very interesting. There are a number of truly relevant issues that are not receiving enough, if any, attention. Working backward through recent posts (everyone's, not just mine) to list such issues:
  • From my Message 1366: That 20-foot stretch of Coconino/Hermit contact isn't unique because images of the same boundary at other locations in the canyon look exactly the same. And it isn't unique as a sharp contact, because there are miles of sharp contact boundaries between strata in the canyon. So what is it about it that you find significant?
  • From PaulK's Message 1365: Using the Coconino as an example, how does the following happen:
    1. The Flood runs inland let's say 100 miles and deposits a meter of sand.
    2. The Flood recedes and animals reoccupy this 100 miles of land that is now covered by sand, leaving tracks.
    3. The Flood runs inland 100 miles again and deposits another meter of sand. The animals retreat to safety.
    4. The Flood recedes again and animals reoccupy the 100 miles of land that is now covered by additional sand, again leaving tracks.
    5. This same process keeps repeating, with the Flood inundating the land and depositing more sand, then receding and animals reoccupying the land and leaving tracks atop the new sand, then inundating the land again, until we have the full depth of the Coconino, which is a couple hundred meters at its thickest point.
    How can animals scamper so far in such a short period of time?
    Why does the Flood keep advancing and retreating? If it's tides, doesn't this require more tides than would happen during the Flood?
    Why, after the Flood deposits all the layers of the Coconino this 100 miles of land, does it advance further to the next hundred miles, which since it hasn't had any sand deposited upon it is now as much as a couple hundred meters lower than the sand just deposited?
  • From my Message 1364: Why do you think "flat and straight and tight" strata are evidence that they're 4500 years old, particularly given the wealth of evidence that they are much older:
    • Radiometric ages of strata range from recent to billions of years old.
    • Fossils in strata increasingly differ from modern forms with increasing depth at an evolutionary pace consistent with radiometrically established ages.
    • The evidence left behind by life (burrows, worm holes, termite nest stacks, tracks, coprolites, etc.) indicates that many strata were once living landscapes for considerable periods of time.
    • Modern measurements of sedimentation rates are consistent with the ages of geological strata.
    • Walther's Law is a slow process taking millions of years to build sedimentary layers to significant depths. There's no such thing as a "rapid Walther's Law" because the deposited sediments are fed by erosion from the land, which is a slow process.
    • Unconformities that represent considerable periods of time require uplift or lowering of sea levels to expose sedimentary layers to erosion (millions of years), followed by erosion of sedimentary layers (millions of years), and subsidence or increase of sea levels so that sedimentation resumes (millions of years).
    • Striping on the sea floor is consistent with reversals of the Earth's magnetic field, which occur on average every few hundred thousand years.
    • The rates of sea floor spreading and continental drift are consistent with an ancient age for the continents and most sea floor, where I'll arbitrarily define ancient to mean more than a million years old.
    • The rate of slope retreat at geological structures like the Grand Canyon are consistent with their width and represent ages of millions of years.
  • From Tanypteryx's Message 1363: How do you justify stating that, "Having an open mind is stupid"?
  • From my Message 1359: Since floods only sort by size/density of sediment and do not normally create sharp contacts, what is it about the images you provided that says "flood" to you?
    Why do you think tectonically quiescent periods are unlikely?
  • From HereBeDragons' Message 1354: If the flood first strips the land so that the sea is full of sediment that it can redeposit upon the land, where did all the animals go while the flood was stripping the land so that they could return later and leave tracks?
There's lots more, but I'm being called to dinner.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1367 by Faith, posted 03-13-2018 4:34 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1370 by Faith, posted 03-14-2018 5:18 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22480
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 1379 of 2887 (829799)
03-14-2018 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1370 by Faith
03-14-2018 5:18 AM


Re: A knife-edge thick contact is NOT an inch thickEros
Going through the points one at a time:
  • About the Coconino/Hermit contact:
    Faith writes:
    From my Message 1366: That 20-foot stretch of Coconino/Hermit contact isn't unique because images of the same boundary at other locations in the canyon look exactly the same. And it isn't unique as a sharp contact, because there are miles of sharp contact boundaries between strata in the canyon. So what is it about it that you find significant?
    Because it's pointed out it seems to be something special, that's all, but perhaps it's being more accessible to view is the reason it's pointed out. Its tightness is the reason, because creationists see that as evidence against the millions of years attributed to strata.
    So it isn't just that 20-foot stretch of Coconino/Hermit contact that is special. It's sharp contact between any two strata that are special, of which there are miles and miles in the Grand Canyon. Why do you think that?
    Baumgardner certainly makes no mention of sharp contact being evidence against an age of millions of years for strata in the article where that image appears, Noah’s Flood: The Key to Correct Interpretation of Earth History:
    quote:
    Why is there so little erosional channeling at formation boundaries within the thick layer-cake like succession of layers, as illustrated in Figure 15 (Snelling 2009, 591-592)? These features of the record are sufficient by themselves to falsify the claim that the present is the key to the past as far as the sediment record is concerned. Nowhere on earth is there currently such a sequence of layers, mostly of marine affinity, with such vast lateral extent being deposited within continent interiors.
    Figure 15. View of the contact between the Coconino Sandstone (above) and the Hermit Shale (below) in the Grand Canyon along the Bright Angel Trail. Note the lack of erosional channeling along this contact. This is not uncommon for contacts between successive formations across the geological record. (From Austin 1994, 49)

    So why do you think sharp contacts between strata layers rule out ages of millions of years?
  • About responding to objections:
    As for PaulK's thoughts I stick to the evidence I am sure of and don't, or shouldn't, try to answer every objection somebody raises.
    But only objections that prove your ideas untenable have been described in this thread, and PaulK's is one of those. Only by describing how the evidence does not support the untenable nature of your ideas can your ideas be shown to be potentially valid.
    Fossil tracks representing both vertebrae and non-vertebrae animals are found in all levels of the Coconino sandstone from the bottom to the top. This means that fossil tracks are found in the bottommost meter of the Coconino, and in the meter above that, and yet more in the meter above that, and so forth right up to the very top of the Coconino which is marked by a disconformity. The thickness of the Coconino ranges from around 20 meters to over 200 meters. How did the fossil tracks come to be at distributed throughout all levels of the Coconino?
    Your idea is that the Coconino was deposited by an inundation upon the land of the flood which then receded, allowing animals to return and leave behind tracks. But the Coconino can be as much as 200 meters thick, each meter of depth possessing tracks, so this could only happen if the flood first inundated the land and deposited Coconino sand to a depth of one meter. The water then receded and the animals returned, leaving behind tracks. Then the flood again inundated the land and deposited another meter of Coconino sand. The water then again receded and the animals again returned, leaving behind tracks. This process of inundations and recessions and animals returning to leave behind tracks would have had to repeat at least 200 times in order to leave tracks behind through every meter of the Coconino.
    This seems impossible, for a number of reasons:
    • During each inundation does the flood deposit a meter of Coconino sand throughout its entire current extent, or only part of its current extent. If the former, then how do animals make the repeated journeys of hundreds of miles into and out of the inundated region? If the latter then the animals need make shorter journeys, but they must make them many more times, and there must be many more inundations. Neither alternative seems possible.
    • At the far end of the range of the inundated region the Coconino will be deposited higher and higher. That is, after the first inundation the Coconino sand at the far end of the inundated region will be a meter higher than the landscape beyond, presumably a Hermit Shale surface. After the second inundation it will be two meters higher. After the third inundation it will be three meters higher. And so on. How is it possible for the flood waters inundating the region to stop at a point that becomes progressively higher?
    • Why aren't boundaries between one repeatedly inundated region and adjacent repeatedly inundated regions present in the geological record?
    • Since the Hermit Formation also contains animal tracks, it must have been deposited in the same way as the Coconino, a little at a time by repeated inundations. If tides are driving the necessary repeated inundations that deposit a meter of sandstone/siltstone at a time, then with a thickness of 100 meters the Hermit Formation would have required 100 tides. Adding this to the Coconino would have required 200 tides, for a total of 300. Given the number of strata both above and below the Coconino, aren't there insufficient tides during the year of the flood.
    • Some strata contain no animal tracks. Is it your position that such strata were deposited in a single inundation? If so, why were some strata deposited a little at a time with repeated inundations, while other strata were deposited all at one time in a single inundation? If not, if each layer of strata were deposited by multiple inundations that deposited only a little at a time, then there is not enough time for all the tides needed for all strata.
    You also said:
    I can only conjecture that some very few animals survived the stripping of the land for some reason, that's all. Otherwise the vast majority died.
    This has its own set of objections:
    • Why do you think "very few animals" could have created all the tracks in all the layers across 500 million square miles of land (total world land area)?
    • How is it that animals leaving tracks in the Tapeats were different from the animals leaving tracks in the Coconino, which are both sand environments?
    • How did worms that left behind worm holes make these repeated journeys into regions between inundations?
  • About an open mind being stupid:
    I don't know what Tanypteryx said but it's stupid to have an open mind when you've already established that something is true or false, such as that the Bible is God's word, or that there is evidence for the Flood.
    Tanypteryx only commented about you saying, "Having an open mind is stupid." You actually said it in your Message 1351 in reply to Edge. The conversation went like this:
    Tanypteryx in Message 1363 writes:
    Faith in Message 1351 writes:
    edge in Message 1349 writes:
    Faith in Message 1348 writes:
    edge in Message 1347 writes:
    Of course paleosols were transported, and root systems, no problem with those. Your language conjures up a whole intact termites' nest but all these things are usually just the bits and pieces I'm talking about, not whole anythings. And dinosaur nests too are usually just smashed flattened remnants yet they get described as if they are intact, just the way a fossilized leaf and a fossilized creature become whole exotic landscapes with trees and animals of a particular "time period."
    Faith, have you ever see what waves do to soil?
    Truly? You expect to pick up termite nests and move the along with dinosaur nests and tracks to another location?
    Sorry, no buying.
    Once I know the Flood happened and that the strata were the result I also know that whatever is found IN the strata was deposited by the Flood. How it happened I don't know and don't care once I know the Flood did it, and I do.
    Nothing like having an open mind, yes?
    Once you absolutely know something, having an open mind is stupid.
    I'm through taking anything you say seriously. Your defense of your argument is increasingly incoherent and chaotic. And now we see that you are stuck and will never improve your mindset to see the glaring inconsistencies your fantasy creates.
    It isn't a discussion if your position is, in effect, "I know I'm right." Nor is it valid in any way as a response, objection or rebuttal. If you know that something is so then you are obligated to explain how you know, usually by providing the evidence and rationale that supports your position.
  • About the meaning of straight strata:
    Straight strata say Flood to me, but perhaps more than that they say no millions of years to me.
    Yes, we know straight strata say flood to you and rule out millions of years to you. You've said this many, many times.
    Can you explain the evidence and rationale for your position?
  • About tectonically quiescent periods:
    Why do you think tectonically quiescent periods are unlikely
    Unlikely? I believe the evidence shows that all the strata were laid down without any kind of disturbance to them during the laying down and that all the tectonic disturbance clearly evidentially happened afterward. Evidence.
    But why do you think tectonically quiescent periods unlikely, for example, during the deposition of the Paleozoic layers in the Grand Canyon region?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1370 by Faith, posted 03-14-2018 5:18 AM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22480
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 1380 of 2887 (829800)
03-14-2018 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1373 by Faith
03-14-2018 5:50 AM


Re: A knife-edge thick contact is NOT an inch thickEros
Faith writes:
I think what is most notable of those trying to explain the inch-wide something is the degree of tentativity they express or the additional explanations they provide, something you're ignoring.
There isn't one iota of reasonable doubt that the inch strip in question belongs to the Hermit, none. The location of the contact is the evidence. There is no other possibility.
You're ignoring most of what I said in Message 1366 and just declaring your position again without any evidence, rationale or discussion.
For example, at the bottom of his Message 1353 Moose says, "The '1 inch layer' might be only superficial dust from the Coconino," which again would make it part of the Coconino.
No it wouldn't, Percy, Moose is just speculating on why this part of the hermit, that is clearly part of the Hermit, has the different appearance it has. Dust is a possibility. If dust from the Coconino landed on a squirrel would that make the squirrel part of the Coconino?
The Coconino lies atop the Hermit. If the bottom inch of Coconino somehow turned to dust and then relithified, that would not make it part of the Hermit.
You're ignoring the interfingering. What is the interfingering of the top of the Hermit interfingered with? Did you miss where Edge said, "My understanding is that the Coconino interfingers with the Hermit in some places"? Also see HereBeDragons' Message 1378 where he has more discussion of creationist Whitmore's paper and substratal liquefaction.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1373 by Faith, posted 03-14-2018 5:50 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1384 by Faith, posted 03-14-2018 3:03 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22480
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 1386 of 2887 (829811)
03-14-2018 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1378 by herebedragons
03-14-2018 10:45 AM


Re: Noble, Hermit shale?, Whitmore and the Coconino
herebedragons writes:
They all describe the Hermit Formation differently, one mentioning sandstone a little, one a lot, another not at all. They all mention siltstone, only one mentions mudstone. Personally, I don't know what to think.
I think that it highlights the fact that geological units are not homogeneous in their composition and the description depends on where the observation is made. And how the author paraphrases the complex set of descriptions. Read Noble's description on pg. 28-29 and paraphrase that into a one sentence description. I bet it is different than the other descriptions.
Looking at the descriptions of all the sublayers of the Hermit Shale on pp 28-29 (A section of the Paleozoic formations of the Grand Canyon at the Bass Trial), a brief but accurate summary does seem challenging. He doesn't mention siltstone, the word doesn't even appear in the paper, so maybe that wasn't a "thing" back then.
Interesting that the description of the Coconino was so brief - he saw little variation top to bottom besides grain size and bedding planes.
The excerpts from Whitmore are interesting. When he says, "the basal Coconino was water saturated and underwent liquefaction during an ancient seismic episode," then because the Coconino layers just above it are obviously diagonally bedded it seems like he must be referring to that bottom inch. Or maybe he's talking about a different location of the Coconino/Hermit contact, though I haven't found any images where it looks different. Too bad there's no online images of close-ups of the contact.
Hydrology of the Eastern Plateau Planning Area - Groundwater
So the Hermit shale is impermeable and water is trapped above it in the Coconino. I think that if a sediment is in standing water it will not lithify properly, at least it will slow it down significantly. Maybe Edge or Moose can confirm that... But, perhaps water was trapped very early in the deposition of the Coconino and the sandstone never really lithified until the Bright Angel Fault was reactivated. Then the water drained off and allowed the basal units to lithify and then at a later time, water became trapped again. That would explain the Coconino clasts in the homogenized zone at the base. The higher level portions, that were not saturated, did lithify and when there was siesmic activity, they broke and became embedded in the homogenized areas.
About the Coconino being an aquifer, I posted about that earlier in the thread (Message 885). Doesn't water seem an odd way to prevent proper lithification? Wouldn't water, at least in more than trace amounts, be one of the first things pressure would force out of the interstices? Or maybe grain size has a big impact, with big grains creating very strong interstices in which water remains? But still, would that prevent lithification?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1378 by herebedragons, posted 03-14-2018 10:45 AM herebedragons has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22480
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 1389 of 2887 (829814)
03-14-2018 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1384 by Faith
03-14-2018 3:03 PM


Re: A knife-edge thick contact is NOT an inch thickEros
Why don't you comment on HereBeDragons' excerpts from creationist Whitmore's paper in Message 1378, and on Edge's comment that there is interfingering between some parts of the Coconino and the Hermit in Message 1263.
But the Coconino/Hermit contact is a side issue. I'd really rather you respond to messages like my Message 1379.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1384 by Faith, posted 03-14-2018 3:03 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1392 by Faith, posted 03-14-2018 3:28 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22480
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 1395 of 2887 (829824)
03-14-2018 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1388 by Faith
03-14-2018 3:13 PM


Re: A knife-edge thick contact is NOT an inch thickEros
Faith writes:
I know you like your interpretation better than mine, but I continue to like mine better than yours.
This is a dodge and a waste of a message. Messages should be used to describe the evidence and rationale supporting one's conclusions. PaulK raises some issues that deserve answers:
  • The fault between the Supergroup blocks does not extend up into the Paleozoic layers, so it occurred before they were deposited.
  • The lack of any deformation of the Paleozoic layers above the Supergroup indicates they were deposited after the Supergroup was uplifted, tilted and eroded. Tectonic tilting of the Supergroup while buried isn't possible.
  • The tilt of the Supergroup layers does not follow the gradually changing tilt of the Kaibab uplift, proving the tilting of the Supergroup and the uplifting of the Kaibab Plateau were independent tectonic events.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1388 by Faith, posted 03-14-2018 3:13 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22480
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 1397 of 2887 (829827)
03-14-2018 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1392 by Faith
03-14-2018 3:28 PM


Re: A knife-edge thick contact is NOT an inch thickEros
Faith writes:
I'm not really interested in all the secondary arguments about these things.
It is obvious to all that for some reason today you have dropped into full dodge mode. You should be using your messages to respond to the issues that have been raised, such as in my Message 1379, HereBeDragons' Message 1377, PaulK's Message 1385 (to which you posted two replies that addressed none of the issues), and Edges Message 1347 (to which you also posted a non-answer).
I'm unfortunately particularly interested in your view of the Mystery Inch because it confirms what I've known for some time: that you don't know how to read the physical world, while you are always accusing me of that. Why would I want to get entangled in more discussion with you in that case?
But if all you can do is declare that you know you're right and that any other view is impossible while avoiding all evidence and rationale, how do you hope to convince anyone of anything but how dogmatic you are? If you can describe evidence that justifies your views then I'd love to hear it. It would also be helpful to see your comments on HereBeDragons' excerpts from creationist Whitmore's paper in Message 1378, and on Edge's comment that there is interfingering between some parts of the Coconino and the Hermit in Message 1263.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1392 by Faith, posted 03-14-2018 3:28 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22480
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 1398 of 2887 (829828)
03-14-2018 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1394 by Faith
03-14-2018 3:35 PM


Re: A knife-edge thick contact is NOT an inch thickEros
Faith writes:
I believe what I say. I've lost interest in trying to prove any of it to you or anyone at EvC, I merely give my view in answer to the usual accusations and leave it at that. Proving it, no, not worth it here.
Please stop dodging and start addressing the issues people are raising.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1394 by Faith, posted 03-14-2018 3:35 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1401 by Faith, posted 03-14-2018 8:51 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22480
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


(2)
Message 1402 of 2887 (829843)
03-14-2018 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1401 by Faith
03-14-2018 8:51 PM


Re: A knife-edge thick contact is NOT an inch thickEros
This isn’t a race. Take your time. Research your answers to eliminate the impossible and implausible. Address all the questions. Don’t rely upon revelation for information. Develop reasoning to connect your evidence/observations to you conclusion. Take a day off. Take a few days off.
Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1401 by Faith, posted 03-14-2018 8:51 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1404 by Faith, posted 03-14-2018 11:40 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1429 by Faith, posted 03-16-2018 2:37 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22480
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 1431 of 2887 (829924)
03-17-2018 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1403 by Minnemooseus
03-14-2018 10:50 PM


Re: Tilt then fault, or fault then tilt, or...
Catching up on this thread...
Minnemooseus writes:
And if we consider the Grand Canyon supergroup, the fault that splits it clearly came after the tilt - as shown by the fact that the sections divided by the fault have the same tilt.
BOGUS - From that information there is no way of telling which happened first. It could have been faulted and then tilted, or even faulted and tilted at the same time.
Or as Edge commented the next day in his Message 1406:
Edge in Message 1406 writes:
We can't say anything for certain about the relative timing of faulting and tilting. However, my prejudice in this case would be that they occurred at the same time because that is common in extensional tectonic settings.
In earlier discussions I've said that to me it looks like the kind of stretching and faulting that creates the typical basin and range landscape.
That the step of the fault is not at all present in the upper layers is evidence that the fault occurred before those layers were present.
Correct.
And since Faith thinks the region experienced only a single tectonic episode, the faults between the Supergroup blocks had to occur before the Paleolithic strata were deposited, else erosion (a surface process) would not have cut the faults off before the Tapeats was deposited. The Kaibab Uplift was a later tectonic episode.
I wasn't able to understand this:
And one side note concerning the "1 inch layer":
Minnemooseus, message 1353 writes:
My guess is that the "1 inch layer" is some alteration/bleaching of the Hermit "shale", long after the lithification of all the units. Perhaps there is sometime water seepage at the contact.
The "1 inch layer" might be only superficial dust from the Coconino.
I think Faith caught what I meant by "superficial dust" - Something that could be washed off the rock face, not a penetrative coloration. Maybe there is a damp zone at the top of the Hermit, that Coconino dust would stick to. Not likely, but who's to say from just looking at the photos we have available.
I'm having trouble formulating intelligent questions, so I'll just pop some out there and see if they enable you to see what I don't understand. How can any dust form and deposit on the layer below if the two layers have already been deposited one atop the other? How can it be "dust" if it was "washed off the rock face" and is wet? If whatever that inch is atop the Hermit originated with the Coconino after both the Hermit and Coconino units were already deposited and lithified, how can it be said to be part of the Hermit?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1403 by Minnemooseus, posted 03-14-2018 10:50 PM Minnemooseus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1434 by Minnemooseus, posted 03-17-2018 8:49 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22480
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 1433 of 2887 (829926)
03-17-2018 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1429 by Faith
03-16-2018 2:37 PM


Re: Waiting with bated breath
Faith writes:
What is it, two or three days, I forget, until you can shed your Clark Kent persona, albeit a very domineering Clark Kent, and return as SuperPercy and slap the cuffs on me? What are you going to give me, a month? Indefinite suspension? Just curious.
What did you do?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1429 by Faith, posted 03-16-2018 2:37 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22480
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 1458 of 2887 (830603)
04-03-2018 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1436 by Faith
04-01-2018 8:45 PM


Re: Creationist film "Is Genesis History?"
Faith writes:
Just a brief report on the 2017 film "Is Genesis History" in which Del Tackett (the Truth Project) interviews creationists about Geology.
Haven't read through the thread yet, but in case no one's mentioned this the flim's at Netflix: Is Genesis History. Where are you viewing it?
There's also a website: Is Genesis History? - The Documentary Film with Del Tackett. There's a page with links to discussions for each segment of the film if you click on "Seen the film? Dig deeper."
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1436 by Faith, posted 04-01-2018 8:45 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1459 by Faith, posted 04-03-2018 3:43 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1461 by dwise1, posted 04-03-2018 6:40 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22480
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 1460 of 2887 (830609)
04-03-2018 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1437 by edge
04-01-2018 10:27 PM


Re: Creationist film "Is Genesis History?"
There were a couple of your points I didn't understand. This is one:
edge writes:
First of all, rapid deposition does not create sorted, tabular extensive deposits. If that were so, then the debris from Mount Saint Helens would look like the Coconino sandstone.
And this is the other:
And of course we get different methods using different radiometric techniques.
Did you mean "different ages"? If so then I can't see how that's true beyond a few percent. Different methods won't yield identical ages, but don't they usually yield ages within the error ranges or at least pretty close? For example, you say:
However, a billion years is not going to turn into 6ky under any circumstance.
But different methods won't yield something like a billion years versus 900 million years in most circumstances, either. Unless there are confounding factors, different methods still yield pretty similar ages. For instance, looking at Table 4.1 in Dalrymple's book, the ages of the different methods (3 different methods in some cases) differ by no more than 5%. And Dalrymple's book is nearly 30 years old - techniques have improved and new dating methods have been introduced, and we still have broad agreement across all the dating methods, no matter what is dated.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1437 by edge, posted 04-01-2018 10:27 PM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1462 by edge, posted 04-03-2018 9:27 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22480
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 1469 of 2887 (830620)
04-04-2018 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1462 by edge
04-03-2018 9:27 PM


Re: Creationist film "Is Genesis History?"
Thanks for the info, I feel much better now.
edge writes:
Sure, I don't think I stated an actual difference, in fact at one point, I said 'slightly different ags'.
There might have been another typo in your Message 1437 because what you actually said was, "We are always measuring slightly different things." I wasn't sure what that meant, either, but if you meant "slightly different ages" then I understand now. Thanks.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1462 by edge, posted 04-03-2018 9:27 PM edge has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22480
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 1470 of 2887 (830621)
04-04-2018 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1446 by Faith
04-02-2018 3:45 PM


Re: Creationist film "Is Genesis History?"
I'm slowly making my way through the thread, and no one responded to this post, so I'll give it a go.
Faith writes:
The point is that sedimentation is taking place on the same scale as your 'strata'.
The point of the comment about the extent of the Coconino sandstone was that sedimentation ON LAND, like the Coconino, is not occurring on that same scale, which is an argument against the OE theory.
PaulK used the example of the Sahara Desert, which is fairly extensive, so deserts on large scales *are* occurring today. Climate conditions of all types have likely existed in all periods of Earth's history.
But the extent of the Coconino sandstone does not mean it was was a desert of that size all at the same time, since climatic conditions of a desert and the desert's extent vary over time. The Coconino was buried over a period of 5 to 10 million years by a generally transgressing sea, but climate conditions can change in periods of less than a hundred thousand years, and desert boundaries can change. The Sahara goes through wet and dry periods on such a timescale, and the region of the Coconino likely experienced such changes. The sand is formed during dry periods when smaller/lighter dust/dirt particles would be carried away by wind, leaving behind the heavier sand. During wet periods the sand would remain and soil formation would resume as well as the return of vegetation. The sand of the Coconino was buried by a gradually transgressing sea following the processes of Walther's Law.
Here are images of deserts at different climatic periods. The deep Sahara is on the left, while the American southwest is on the right. They both have a great deal of sand, but the American Southwest is wetter and has some soil and vegetation. I present these images to illustrate just how different various portions of the Coconino could be, both over geographic extent and over time:
That is not the geologic column on the seafloor.
Every point on the solid surface of the Earth, including the seafloor, is the top of a geologic column. Any sediments accumulating at any point on the Earth's solid surface are contributing to the geologic column.
Presumably according to OE theory the geo column formed slowly on land over millions of years, and the model for it is supposed to be today's sedimentation. Doesn't work.
But you can't explain in what way it doesn't work. In fact, given how sediment just alternately accumulates and transports until it reaches a lowest point and is buried, it isn't possible that it couldn't work. Erosion and weathering creates sediments, and the sediments are gradually transported to the lowest point where they make a permanent contribution to the geologic column.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1446 by Faith, posted 04-02-2018 3:45 PM Faith has not replied

  
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