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Author Topic:   Creation
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 547 of 1482 (828270)
02-15-2018 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 543 by ICANT
02-15-2018 2:19 AM


Re: Bible
quote:
Job 9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.
Spreading doesn't mean expansion. When you spread butter you have the same volume. Only the shape changes.
quote:
Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
Same as above. Curtains don't expand.
quote:
Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Here you have the earth spreading. Science does not claim that the earth is expanding.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 543 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2018 2:19 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 548 by Phat, posted 02-15-2018 1:04 PM ringo has replied
 Message 554 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2018 7:22 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 559 of 1482 (828350)
02-16-2018 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 548 by Phat
02-15-2018 1:04 PM


Re: Bible
Phat writes:
It makes more sense to ask "What came first? God or dirt" rather than to speculate that dirt has eternally existed.
Why does that make more sense? How do you go from an unknown quantity like "God" to a sensible conclusion? Wouldn't the conclusion be more sensible if it came from only known quantities, like dirt?
Phat writes:
Critics say that one major reason that many people prefer the eternal dirt hypothesis is that dirt (matter) does not hold one accountable.
But you're the one who doesn't want to be accountable, aren't you? You want God to do it all for you.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 548 by Phat, posted 02-15-2018 1:04 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 560 of 1482 (828351)
02-16-2018 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 554 by ICANT
02-15-2018 7:22 PM


Re: Bible
ICANT writes:
Are you sure the earth did not expand from a small nucleus to what it is today.
That was accretion, not expansion.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 554 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2018 7:22 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 562 by ICANT, posted 02-16-2018 6:31 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 561 of 1482 (828352)
02-16-2018 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 555 by ICANT
02-15-2018 7:26 PM


Re: Why NOT A Literal Bible?
ICANT writes:
A lack of those three things means the BB did not take place as has been presented here.
Why do you think cavediver made the statement that a new theory was needed.
If a new theory is needed, that is not "proof" that the old theory was "false".

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 555 by ICANT, posted 02-15-2018 7:26 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 564 of 1482 (828404)
02-17-2018 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 562 by ICANT
02-16-2018 6:31 PM


Re: Bible
ICANT writes:
Whatever you call the process it got bigger.
But the process is completely different. The earth got larger because new matter was added to it. The expansion of the universe involves a fixed amount of matter/energy.
ICANT writes:
Every time in the past that I mentioned accretion everybody clamed up.
You never mentioned it to me. I don't clam up.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 562 by ICANT, posted 02-16-2018 6:31 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 565 by ICANT, posted 02-17-2018 2:18 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 577 of 1482 (828499)
02-20-2018 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 565 by ICANT
02-17-2018 2:18 PM


Re: Bible
ICANT writes:
ringo writes:
But the process is completely different. The earth got larger because new matter was added to it. The expansion of the universe involves a fixed amount of matter/energy.
That in the beginning was about the size pea.
You're not saying anything. The fact is that the Bible doesn't say anything about expansion.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 565 by ICANT, posted 02-17-2018 2:18 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 578 by ICANT, posted 02-20-2018 3:36 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 587 of 1482 (828599)
02-21-2018 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 578 by ICANT
02-20-2018 3:36 PM


Re: Bible
ICANT writes:
But the Bible does say it was stretched out it doesn't say how.
You quoted Job, where it says "spread", not stretched. As I've already pointed out, when you spread butter you don't increase the volume.
You quoted Isaiah, where it says the heavens were stretched out "like a curtain". When you stretch out a curtain, it doesn't get bigger. Only it's shape changes, like spreading butter.
So no, the Bible doesn't say the universe expanded.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 578 by ICANT, posted 02-20-2018 3:36 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 591 by ICANT, posted 02-23-2018 1:10 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 593 of 1482 (828797)
02-24-2018 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 591 by ICANT
02-23-2018 1:10 PM


Re: Bible
ICANT writes:
Those people had a hard time living in those tents if they were spread like butter on a piece of bread.
Think it through. That's exactly how tents are spread. They go from a small, folded package to a large, flat surface - but the volume of the fabric doesn't change.
ICANT writes:
For them to live in the tent it had to be expanded it by stretching it out.
Again, "stretching out" the fabric does not mean that the fabric expanded. To be analogous with the expansion of space, the threads in the fabric would have to get farther apart. You'd have a tent full of holes.
So no, the Bible does not talk about expansion in the same way that scientists do.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 591 by ICANT, posted 02-23-2018 1:10 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 594 by ICANT, posted 03-05-2018 11:30 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 595 of 1482 (829358)
03-06-2018 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 594 by ICANT
03-05-2018 11:30 PM


Re: Bible
ICANT writes:
What would you have tent dwellers do? Spread the tent on the ground and then put their bedrolls on top of it and lay under the sky?
We're talking about the tent itself, not the volume that it encloses. A tent unfolds to a specific size and doesn't get any bigger. That's the difference between spreading and expansion.
As I said, if a tent was expanding like the universe, the spaces between the threads would get bigger, giving you a tent full of holes. I don't have to go to a sports store to know I wouldn't buy that tent.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 594 by ICANT, posted 03-05-2018 11:30 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 596 by jar, posted 03-06-2018 12:12 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 597 by ICANT, posted 03-06-2018 3:07 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 603 of 1482 (829444)
03-07-2018 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 597 by ICANT
03-06-2018 3:07 PM


Re: Bible
ICANT writes:
That spread out 10' x 10' tent that is laying on the ground will expand to a volume around 700 cubic feet.
The volume enclosed by the material increases to a certain point and then stops. What science describes is the material itself expanding, and with no particular limit on how much it can expand.
ICANT writes:
If you ever decide you want to know what the Hebrew text says you will have to quit thinking the way you do and begin to think like you would if you lived 3000 years ago.
That's basically what I'm trying to tell you. You should give up the idea that the ancient Hebrews had any hint of an idea about the expanding universe. They had no words for the concept because they didn't have the concept.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 597 by ICANT, posted 03-06-2018 3:07 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 604 by ICANT, posted 03-12-2018 12:50 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 605 of 1482 (829709)
03-12-2018 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 604 by ICANT
03-12-2018 12:50 PM


Re: Bible
ICANT writes:
Yes I know that science claims that the universe in contained inside of a fabric of some kind.
The universe is not "contained". It is the fabric.
ICANT writes:
The universe is still stretching out in all directions Moses was just talking about a huge tent. Just like cavediver was talking about a huge balloon that could just expand forever.
But a tent can not expand forever, so Moses was clearly wrong.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 604 by ICANT, posted 03-12-2018 12:50 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 610 by ICANT, posted 03-20-2018 1:01 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 611 of 1482 (830052)
03-20-2018 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 610 by ICANT
03-20-2018 1:01 PM


Re: Bible
ICANT writes:
The universe can't expand forever either. It will cease to expand when it reaches a heat death.
Does expansion have anything to do with thermodynamics at all? It's the space that's expanding, not the stuff in it, and only stuff can contain heat.
In any case, it doesn't address what I said. A tent does not expand; it unfolds. Moses had no clue.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 610 by ICANT, posted 03-20-2018 1:01 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 614 by ICANT, posted 03-20-2018 3:18 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 617 of 1482 (830106)
03-21-2018 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 614 by ICANT
03-20-2018 3:18 PM


Re: Bible
ICANT writes:
You can't unfold or unroll a tent without spreading it out.
But it isn't the same kind of "spreading" as expansion.
ICANT writes:
All the pictures I see and descriptions given have the universe beginning at a point and then expanding in a forward direction from that point.
You're misunderstanding those pictures. The "forward direction" is the time axis. The universe is expanding in three dimensions - a sphere, not a circle. The pictures are attempting to show four dimensions in two dimensions.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 614 by ICANT, posted 03-20-2018 3:18 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 619 by ICANT, posted 03-30-2018 2:45 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 626 of 1482 (830491)
03-31-2018 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 619 by ICANT
03-30-2018 2:45 AM


Re: Bible
ICANT writes:
What is the mechanism that would cause the universe to expand in a forward direction.
As I said, it is not expanding in a "forward direction". You're misunderstanding the pictures.
ICANT writes:
Since space is said to have increased between each of the quarks what would be the mechanism that would keep it from expanding into a sphere which is a perfectly round geometrical object?
That is what the pictures are meant to show. What you see as a "forward direction" is time.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 619 by ICANT, posted 03-30-2018 2:45 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 629 by ICANT, posted 04-02-2018 1:29 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 639 of 1482 (830577)
04-03-2018 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 629 by ICANT
04-02-2018 1:29 PM


Re: Bible
ICANT writes:
No I am not misunderstanding the pictures. It actually shows the universe expanding in a forward direction.
You obviously do misunderstand. There is no "forward direction". Think of the picture as an animation: The initial inflation happens quicky, then expansion continues more slowly - but the universe itself is in the shape of a sphere.
ICANT writes:
It does not show the universe expanding in every direction at the same time.
That's exactly what it shows.
ICANT writes:
But the universe is not expanding in a time related forward direction.
The universe is expanding as time passes. "Forward direction" is meaningless.
ICANT writes:
It is a sphere expanding in every possible direction simultaneously.
Therefore it should look like a sphere.
It does. You're misunderstanding the picture.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 629 by ICANT, posted 04-02-2018 1:29 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 640 by ICANT, posted 04-04-2018 11:31 AM ringo has replied

  
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