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Author | Topic: Religious Special Pleading | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
Run! Run like the wind! Enough.An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Modulous writes:
In Message 133 you said,"... so those parents that beat their children, rape them, murder them, neglect them, etc etc etc are only harming themselves - so it should be permissible?" I pointed out that I didn't say "only" - i.e. I didn't say that beating, rape, murder, neglect, etc. "only" harms the parent. Then they aren't equivalent.
ringo writes:
I didn't say they were. I said that parents feel the harm that is done to their children.quote: Harming a child is equivalent to harming the parent. Parents feel the harm that is done to their children. You're harming your position by not understanding that.
Modulous writes:
So why not be consistent and consult every stakeholder on the subject of abortion - instead of leaving it up to the woman and her doctor? I think it's best if we include ethics and legal professionals among other stakeholders - including penis-owners.An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Ringo writes: Run! Run like the wind! I'm not going anywhere chuck, but I'm also not prepared to repeat the same arguments more than a dozen or so times. The points have been made; they stand on their merits. The thread is about religious special pleading - male circumcision is merely one example of it. I rather hope we can move on.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
they aren't equivalent. I didn't say they were. I'm glad we can agree that you did say that harming a child is equivalent to harming the parent.
Parents feel the harm that is done to their children. You're harming your position by not understanding that. Harming a child is not harming the parent. It might harm the parent, or it might not. Thus they are not equivalent. Message 130 It can be shown they are not equivalent by referencing cases where children are harmed by parents, who themselves are not harmed. Further - killing a child causes more harm to the child than it does to the parent.
So why not be consistent and consult every stakeholder on the subject of abortion - instead of leaving it up to the woman and her doctor? We do consult the stakeholders, and I support that.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
The trial of a man accused of female genital mutiltion ended with acquittal yesterday. This despite the fact that the girl had been cut.
There's been only one other prosecution for FGM and that also failed. UK solicitor cleared of forcing daughter to undergo FGM | Female genital mutilation (FGM) | The Guardian A couple of years ago the NHS started collecting statistics on FGM victims as they entered the service for other medical conditions - maternity being the big one. So far they've reported 14,500 cases. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm. |
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
Nope. Your "points" fly in the face of medical practice and religious freedom. Double fail. The points have been made; they stand on their merits.An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Modulous writes:
But you were the one who called it "nonsense". I'm glad we can agree that you did say that harming a child is equivalent to harming the parent.An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
I'm glad we can agree that you did say that harming a child is equivalent to harming the parent. But you were the one who called it "nonsense". I called your claim 'nonsense', yes. You later denied making the claim. I showed that you made that claim. You then confirmed you had made that claim. I stated I was glad we agree that you did make the claim. I'm not sure how that merits the word 'but'. Were you trying to make a point or were you just confused? Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
ringo writes: Nope. Your "points" fly in the face of medical practice and religious freedom. Well you got half of that right, but no matter. You seem to think that arguments are won by endlessly repeating assertions; I don't.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Modulous writes:
You misrepresented what I said. You equivocated child molestation with circumcision.
I showed that you made that claim. Modulous writes:
I'm not sure whether or not you're being deliberately dishonest. Otherwise, I'm fairly lucid. Were you trying to make a point or were you just confused?An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
It isn't about winning or losing. If somebody comes into the middle of the thread and reads your foolishness, they might be misled if it isn't challenged. You seem to think that arguments are won by endlessly repeating assertions; I don't.An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
ringo writes: It isn't about winning or losing. Ha!
If somebody comes into the middle of the thread and reads your foolishness, they might be misled if it isn't challenged. I'm positive that is not your motivation, but whatever.....as the kids say. Meanwhile, back in the world of facts and sanity:
Circumcision of children for "non-medical reasons" is banned in Denmark and Sweden. Boys may consent to the procedure from the age of 12: Denmark, Sweden Ban Non-Medical Circumcision of Boys In 2012, it was ruled that religious circumcision is illegal in Germany:German circumcision ban: Is it a parent's right to choose? "Cosmetic" circumcision is banned in public hospitals in Australia, although permitted in private ones. In 2013 the Council of Europe adopted a resolution questioning the practice of circumcising young boys and several EU member states are debating bans on religious circumcision. In the UK, circumcision remains legal but it is rare outside the Jewish and Muslim communities. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
You're wrong about a lot of things. I'm positive that is not your motivationAn honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
You misrepresented what I said. You equivocated child molestation with circumcision. You said harming a child was equivalent to harming the parent. I used the example of parents who commit child molestation and other things to show that this was not true.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Modulous writes:
And that still doesn't make any sense. You're making the same mistake as Tangle, trying to argue from the specific to the general. If you give an example of a brown dog, it doesn't follow that all dogs are brown. You said harming a child was equivalent to harming the parent. I used the example of parents who commit child molestation and other things to show that this was not true. Are there some parents who molest their children? Yes. Are there some parents who don't like their children at all? Yes. But that doesn't change the fact that for most parents, if you harm their child you're also harming the parents. it's a pretty obvious point.An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo
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