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Author Topic:   Religious Special Pleading
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 151 of 357 (830141)
03-22-2018 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by Tangle
03-21-2018 4:57 PM


Tangle writes:
Enough.
Run! Run like the wind!

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Tangle, posted 03-21-2018 4:57 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Tangle, posted 03-22-2018 2:54 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 152 of 357 (830143)
03-22-2018 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by Modulous
03-21-2018 4:59 PM


Modulous writes:
Then they aren't equivalent.
ringo writes:
I didn't say they were. I said that parents feel the harm that is done to their children.
quote:
Harming a child is equivalent to harming the parent.
In Message 133 you said,"... so those parents that beat their children, rape them, murder them, neglect them, etc etc etc are only harming themselves - so it should be permissible?" I pointed out that I didn't say "only" - i.e. I didn't say that beating, rape, murder, neglect, etc. "only" harms the parent.
Harming a child is equivalent to harming the parent. Parents feel the harm that is done to their children. You're harming your position by not understanding that.
Modulous writes:
I think it's best if we include ethics and legal professionals among other stakeholders - including penis-owners.
So why not be consistent and consult every stakeholder on the subject of abortion - instead of leaving it up to the woman and her doctor?

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Modulous, posted 03-21-2018 4:59 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Modulous, posted 03-22-2018 4:25 PM ringo has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 153 of 357 (830150)
03-22-2018 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by ringo
03-22-2018 11:48 AM


Ringo writes:
Run! Run like the wind!
I'm not going anywhere chuck, but I'm also not prepared to repeat the same arguments more than a dozen or so times. The points have been made; they stand on their merits.
The thread is about religious special pleading - male circumcision is merely one example of it. I rather hope we can move on.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by ringo, posted 03-22-2018 11:48 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by ringo, posted 03-24-2018 11:51 AM Tangle has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 154 of 357 (830152)
03-22-2018 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by ringo
03-22-2018 11:58 AM


they aren't equivalent.
I didn't say they were.
{yes you did}
Harming a child is equivalent to harming the parent.
I'm glad we can agree that you did say that harming a child is equivalent to harming the parent.
Parents feel the harm that is done to their children. You're harming your position by not understanding that.
Harming a child is not harming the parent. It might harm the parent, or it might not. Thus they are not equivalent. Message 130
It can be shown they are not equivalent by referencing cases where children are harmed by parents, who themselves are not harmed. Further - killing a child causes more harm to the child than it does to the parent.
So why not be consistent and consult every stakeholder on the subject of abortion - instead of leaving it up to the woman and her doctor?
We do consult the stakeholders, and I support that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by ringo, posted 03-22-2018 11:58 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by ringo, posted 03-24-2018 11:52 AM Modulous has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 155 of 357 (830161)
03-23-2018 10:11 AM


The trial of a man accused of female genital mutiltion ended with acquittal yesterday. This despite the fact that the girl had been cut.
There's been only one other prosecution for FGM and that also failed.
UK solicitor cleared of forcing daughter to undergo FGM | Female genital mutilation (FGM) | The Guardian
A couple of years ago the NHS started collecting statistics on FGM victims as they entered the service for other medical conditions - maternity being the big one. So far they've reported 14,500 cases.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 156 of 357 (830181)
03-24-2018 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Tangle
03-22-2018 2:54 PM


Tangle writes:
The points have been made; they stand on their merits.
Nope. Your "points" fly in the face of medical practice and religious freedom. Double fail.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Tangle, posted 03-22-2018 2:54 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Tangle, posted 03-25-2018 3:19 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 157 of 357 (830182)
03-24-2018 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by Modulous
03-22-2018 4:25 PM


Modulous writes:
I'm glad we can agree that you did say that harming a child is equivalent to harming the parent.
But you were the one who called it "nonsense".

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Modulous, posted 03-22-2018 4:25 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Modulous, posted 03-24-2018 3:11 PM ringo has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 158 of 357 (830192)
03-24-2018 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by ringo
03-24-2018 11:52 AM


I'm glad we can agree that you did say that harming a child is equivalent to harming the parent.
But you were the one who called it "nonsense".
I called your claim 'nonsense', yes. You later denied making the claim. I showed that you made that claim. You then confirmed you had made that claim. I stated I was glad we agree that you did make the claim.
I'm not sure how that merits the word 'but'. Were you trying to make a point or were you just confused?
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by ringo, posted 03-24-2018 11:52 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by ringo, posted 03-25-2018 2:19 PM Modulous has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 159 of 357 (830209)
03-25-2018 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by ringo
03-24-2018 11:51 AM


ringo writes:
Nope. Your "points" fly in the face of medical practice and religious freedom.
Well you got half of that right, but no matter.
You seem to think that arguments are won by endlessly repeating assertions; I don't.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by ringo, posted 03-24-2018 11:51 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by ringo, posted 03-25-2018 2:21 PM Tangle has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 160 of 357 (830233)
03-25-2018 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Modulous
03-24-2018 3:11 PM


Modulous writes:
I showed that you made that claim.
You misrepresented what I said. You equivocated child molestation with circumcision.
Modulous writes:
Were you trying to make a point or were you just confused?
I'm not sure whether or not you're being deliberately dishonest. Otherwise, I'm fairly lucid.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Modulous, posted 03-24-2018 3:11 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Modulous, posted 03-25-2018 8:59 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 161 of 357 (830235)
03-25-2018 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Tangle
03-25-2018 3:19 AM


Tangle writes:
You seem to think that arguments are won by endlessly repeating assertions; I don't.
It isn't about winning or losing. If somebody comes into the middle of the thread and reads your foolishness, they might be misled if it isn't challenged.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Tangle, posted 03-25-2018 3:19 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Tangle, posted 03-25-2018 2:47 PM ringo has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 162 of 357 (830238)
03-25-2018 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by ringo
03-25-2018 2:21 PM


ringo writes:
It isn't about winning or losing.
Ha!
If somebody comes into the middle of the thread and reads your foolishness, they might be misled if it isn't challenged.
I'm positive that is not your motivation, but whatever.....as the kids say.
Meanwhile, back in the world of facts and sanity:
Circumcision of children for "non-medical reasons" is banned in Denmark and Sweden. Boys may consent to the procedure from the age of 12:
Denmark, Sweden Ban Non-Medical Circumcision of Boys
In 2012, it was ruled that religious circumcision is illegal in Germany:
German circumcision ban: Is it a parent's right to choose?
"Cosmetic" circumcision is banned in public hospitals in Australia, although permitted in private ones. In 2013 the Council of Europe adopted a resolution questioning the practice of circumcising young boys and several EU member states are debating bans on religious circumcision.
In the UK, circumcision remains legal but it is rare outside the Jewish and Muslim communities.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by ringo, posted 03-25-2018 2:21 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by ringo, posted 03-25-2018 2:53 PM Tangle has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 163 of 357 (830239)
03-25-2018 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Tangle
03-25-2018 2:47 PM


Tangle writes:
I'm positive that is not your motivation
You're wrong about a lot of things.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Tangle, posted 03-25-2018 2:47 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 164 of 357 (830254)
03-25-2018 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by ringo
03-25-2018 2:19 PM


You misrepresented what I said. You equivocated child molestation with circumcision.
You said harming a child was equivalent to harming the parent. I used the example of parents who commit child molestation and other things to show that this was not true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by ringo, posted 03-25-2018 2:19 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by ringo, posted 03-26-2018 11:57 AM Modulous has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 165 of 357 (830281)
03-26-2018 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by Modulous
03-25-2018 8:59 PM


Modulous writes:
You said harming a child was equivalent to harming the parent. I used the example of parents who commit child molestation and other things to show that this was not true.
And that still doesn't make any sense. You're making the same mistake as Tangle, trying to argue from the specific to the general. If you give an example of a brown dog, it doesn't follow that all dogs are brown.
Are there some parents who molest their children? Yes. Are there some parents who don't like their children at all? Yes. But that doesn't change the fact that for most parents, if you harm their child you're also harming the parents. it's a pretty obvious point.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Modulous, posted 03-25-2018 8:59 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Modulous, posted 03-26-2018 3:30 PM ringo has replied

  
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