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Author Topic:   "Natural" (plant-based) Health Solutions
Faith
Member
Posts: 27603
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 571 of 606 (830400)
03-28-2018 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 570 by NoNukes
03-28-2018 1:08 PM


Re: Hey Frako, here's another gardening possibility: microgreens
The point of watching two minutes of the video is that the meaning of the headlines would change.

Of course it's a starting point, why would you think anything else? All this stuff is pretty new, new to me for starters. The videos might inspire people to get deeper into it all.

However, what would you expect to be convinced of anyway? One of them is about a woman in Florida who looks half her age living on a raw vegan diet most of which she grows in her own yard. The other is about a man in Baltimore who started growing microgreens in his house for his own consumption and then took over a whole bedroom to grow enough to sell to his neighbors.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 570 by NoNukes, posted 03-28-2018 1:08 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 572 by NoNukes, posted 03-28-2018 11:38 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 575 by Phat, posted 03-29-2018 9:36 AM Faith has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10470
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 572 of 606 (830423)
03-28-2018 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 571 by Faith
03-28-2018 1:40 PM


Re: Hey Frako, here's another gardening possibility: microgreens
Of course it's a starting point, why would you think anything else? All this stuff is pretty new, new to me for starters.

Great question. The reason for pointing out that videos are just a starting point is because your past behavior suggests that you act otherwise. I'd be happy to cite examples if you'd like. The reason for not doing so is to avoid the kind of topic drift that my first post caused. But if you really are up for hearing it, let me know.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 571 by Faith, posted 03-28-2018 1:40 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10659
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 573 of 606 (830430)
03-29-2018 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 562 by PaulK
03-28-2018 1:22 AM


Re: Insulin as culprit regarding many diseases
PaulK writes:

I may not know much - but that is why I check with people who know more.
It’s your health at stake and I would advise you to be very careful with it. If your diabetes has progressed to the point where you need insulin you are at risk.

I am a Type II Diabetic, and thankfully my pancreas still makes enough insulin to cover me should I need it. I apologize for sounding somewhat arrogant claiming I know more about this stuff than all of you---I don't---I too am learning. The topic of diet and what constitutes the best one for certain individuals is contested to this day even among medical professionals. No two people are alike--and what works for me may not be what you or Faith or anyone else needs. Dr.Jason Fung, though admittedly selling books on the subject, appears to me to be a credible source of wisdom. Critics will accuse me of being lazy and not doing my own scientific research on the subject, but whenever it comes to something that affects me personally, I DO my homework. You say that "if my diabetes has progressed to the point where I need insulin..." but what you need to understand is that just because my doctors have prescribed the insulin does not mean that I actually need as much as they prescribe. (I know you guys don't trust nor watch videos, but in this one Dr.Fung defends his science on the matter)

My Endocrinologist and I don't agree on the science, and though she has the credentials on her side, I have personal evidence that the low carb low insulin approach is better for my health. Her concern is treating the symptom---my high blood sugar. Research shows, however, that in the matter of insulin resistance, extra insulin actually increases the resistance and makes the problem worse in the long term. I see her a week from today, so I will share what our conversation was at that appointment.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 562 by PaulK, posted 03-28-2018 1:22 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 576 by PaulK, posted 03-29-2018 9:46 AM Phat has responded
 Message 581 by NoNukes, posted 03-29-2018 11:25 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10659
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 574 of 606 (830431)
03-29-2018 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 563 by Faith
03-28-2018 1:36 AM


Re: Insulin as culprit regarding many diseases
Faith writes:

Amazingly I actually agree with PaulK about this, Phat. I've understood that if your blood sugar is at the level where they prescribe insulin it is very serious, and important to keep it controlled with the insulin. If your diet does bring down your blood sugar level THEN you can start getting off the insulin.

The problem is, as long as I am taking the extra insulin, my legs swell and I dont get better. I am continually tired, and the diet which they approve of has too many carbs which is why the extra insulin is prescribed in the first place---to bring down high sugars. Unlike you, I have measureable insulin resistance. My argument, which I wage with my Doctors, is that extra insulin causes further insulin resistance. They counter that the insulin is necessary to control the high sugars, which is their primary concern. The only real way out of this for me, at age 58, was to take control of my diet and my insulin.

Dr.Fung explains the science behind lowering the insulin, and I am not too worried about my insulin dropping too low at this point. I am prescribed both short-acting and long-acting insulin. I still take the long-acting but am fighting to discontinue the short-acting provided my meals are not high carb meals which require higher insulin to digest.

Again, my argument is that continual reliance on higher insulin doses only increases the insulin resistance which led to the problem in the first place.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 563 by Faith, posted 03-28-2018 1:36 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10659
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 575 of 606 (830432)
03-29-2018 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 571 by Faith
03-28-2018 1:40 PM


Catch-22
Faith writes:

All this stuff is pretty new, new to me for starters. The videos might inspire people to get deeper into it all.

However, what would you expect to be convinced of anyway? One of them is about a woman in Florida who looks half her age living on a raw vegan diet most of which she grows in her own yard. The other is about a man in Baltimore who started growing microgreens in his house for his own consumption and then took over a whole bedroom to grow enough to sell to his neighbors.

Based on what you have told me and taking your age into consideration, I agree that a vegan plant-based diet would likely be the best for you. It sounds like that your main problem appears to be motivation and energy levels with which to get started in the first place. Like I and my insulin problems, your problem is a catch-22. You need the energy to become motivated to start a garden and/or get mild exercise to gain energy.

I have no doubt that your energy would be maximized(for your age and health) were you to become more active but how does one simply become more active if they dont have the energy?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 571 by Faith, posted 03-28-2018 1:40 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 578 by Faith, posted 03-29-2018 10:05 AM Phat has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13756
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 576 of 606 (830433)
03-29-2018 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 573 by Phat
03-29-2018 9:20 AM


Re: Insulin as culprit regarding many diseases
quote:

I am a Type II Diabetic, and thankfully my pancreas still makes enough insulin to cover me should I need it.

That is WHY it is a bad sign that you have been prescribed insulin. Metformin is the first-line treatment for Type II diabetes, and there are other things they should try before using insulin. If you had a mild case you shouldn’t be using insulin at all.

I am going to say it again. Watch your blood sugar very carefully. You may not need all the insulin but letting your blood sugar get out of control can have very serious effects. You have a severe condition, and if you are going to take the harder path to managing it you have to be extra careful.

I am not saying don’t do it, I am saying do it right, because it could get much worse for you if you get it wrong.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 573 by Phat, posted 03-29-2018 9:20 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 577 by Phat, posted 03-29-2018 9:55 AM PaulK has not yet responded
 Message 583 by Phat, posted 03-31-2018 9:37 AM PaulK has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10659
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 577 of 606 (830435)
03-29-2018 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 576 by PaulK
03-29-2018 9:46 AM


Re: Insulin as culprit regarding many diseases
Thanks for your concern. I'm letting the Doctors know everything that I am doing.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 576 by PaulK, posted 03-29-2018 9:46 AM PaulK has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 27603
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 578 of 606 (830437)
03-29-2018 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 575 by Phat
03-29-2018 9:36 AM


Re: Catch-22
Hey Phat.
I'm mostly trying to get some inspiration and a feel for all the possibilities by watching the videos, and I like a lot of the plant-based diets but I don't think I would ever be completely vegan let alone raw vegan. Annette Larkins is very impressive, however, and I've watched some of her meal prep videos. I'm going to try one as soon as I get all the ingredients on hand.

It's arthritis that keeps me from being active though, not lack of energy -- I have to use a walker. Barring a miracle, I have no illusions I'll be starting a garden in this life. And they say it can take a couple of years to get a vegan diet going. I'm not sure it's lack of motivation as much as that it's simply hard to give up habits to switch to a completely new way of eating -- and finding out what are the best foods among all the possibilities. I just try this and that and keep trying things, and try to get off some old habits I know aren't good for me, but that's very hard, I have to find other things to take their place or it just isn't going to work.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 575 by Phat, posted 03-29-2018 9:36 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 579 by Phat, posted 03-29-2018 10:20 AM Faith has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10659
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 579 of 606 (830438)
03-29-2018 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 578 by Faith
03-29-2018 10:05 AM


Inflammation, Awareness, and Discipline
Faith writes:

I'm mostly trying to get some inspiration and a feel for all the possibilities by watching the videos, and I like a lot of the plant-based diets but I don't think I would ever be completely vegan let alone raw vegan. Annette Larkins is very impressive, however, and I've watched some of her meal prep videos. I'm going to try one as soon as I get all the ingredients on hand.
It's arthritis that keeps me from being active though, not lack of energy -- I have to use a walker.

I'm sorry to hear that. Old Age is a b*tch. I am only 58, but the extra insulin ages me, and one of the reasons that i am taking control of my health is because all of the medications were not solving the problem---apart from controlling the numbers, I was and am doomed to age and decline regardless of the medications used.

Arthritis is an inflammation problem, and likely requires numerous medications which cannot be eliminated. Excess sugar causes much of the inflammation indirectly, however...I would research this more in order to confirm my assessment. If you were to drop the higher glycemic carbs such as potatoes and bread (oh but they taste so comforting! ) and if you consumed a few healthy oils and fats such as salmon and avocados, you may find some success with controlling the inflammation through natural means as well as the medications which you have been prescribed.

The reality about food is that it has so many emotional connotations as well as simple nutritional ones, and managing ones own diet requires discipline, (in our case, prayer and surrender) and mindfulness as to the BIG picture. I wish you well in your journey as you attempt to control and minimize the harmful effects of arthritis that limits your mobility and may even make you cranky at times.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 578 by Faith, posted 03-29-2018 10:05 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 580 by Faith, posted 03-29-2018 10:39 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 27603
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 580 of 606 (830440)
03-29-2018 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 579 by Phat
03-29-2018 10:20 AM


Re: Inflammation, Awareness, and Discipline
Phat, I don't eat sugar, maybe a dark chocolate bar once in a while because it's on the anti-Alzheimer's list. But otherwise I haven't had any sugar or white flour or things made from them in many many years. I'm also up on the good fats like salmon and avocadoes. I only started eating potatoes a few months ago as part of going plant-based, because at least one doctor recommends a high starch basis for his version of the diet, but the point is that potatoes can't be blamed for a lack of energy that I've had for years. My problem is my addiction to cream and butter. Seems I can't do without them at the moment. I've incorporated a lot of the star plant foods into my habits already, such as the berries, they make a terrific smoothie that is a vehicle for some other nutrients, but I can 't make myself do it with almond milk, half and half is the lowest fat cream that still makes this wonderful frozen drink. I know, terribly self-indulgent of me, but that's the main problem.

I'm also quite aware of the inflammation problem, which seems to be behind most chronic diseases. I may eventually have to give up the potatoes too, but getting enough calories on a plant-based diet seems to require some kind of starchy food. Not that I'm lacking calories at this stage thanks to my cream and butter habit.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 579 by Phat, posted 03-29-2018 10:20 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10470
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 581 of 606 (830442)
03-29-2018 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 573 by Phat
03-29-2018 9:20 AM


Re: Insulin as culprit regarding many diseases
I am a Type II Diabetic, and thankfully my pancreas still makes enough insulin to cover me should I need it. I apologize for sounding somewhat arrogant claiming I know more about this stuff than all of you---I don't---I too am learning.

I am a little puzzled. I thought that Type II Diabetics did not take insulin. For that reason, I was very concerned when you talked about substituting a diet regimen for your education.

When you are attempting tricks for maintaining your diet, I highly recommend that you monitor yourself often. The problem with diabetes is the effect out of control sugar levels has on the deterioration of our organs including kidneys, eyes, and heart over time. The longer you have uncontrolled glucose levels, the more damage you can accumulate. You don't want to run a lab experiment on any of that stuff without strict monitoring, multiple times a day. And if your favorite tricks are not working, you need to bail.

Counter to what you have been saying, the mainstream advice is that it may be possible to manage the condition using diet and exercise. However, your doctor is probably going to make a call based on what you tell them, and what your levels are at the time you are seen.

but what you need to understand is that just because my doctors have prescribed the insulin does not mean that I actually need as much as they prescribe.

If your doctor is competent, then they are going to monitor your A1C levels over time and adjust your medication. You may be able to do better than that if you monitor often, and watch your diet, but your doctor's advice is likely the best possible with the limited information from your tests and what you tell him/her. There is no question that your doctor knows way more about the subject than you do.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 573 by Phat, posted 03-29-2018 9:20 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 582 by Phat, posted 03-31-2018 9:36 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10659
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 582 of 606 (830477)
03-31-2018 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 581 by NoNukes
03-29-2018 11:25 AM


Re: Insulin as culprit regarding many diseases
Taking this over to Health 4 Life~The Science Behind Consumption since I dont want to take over Faiths plant-based thread.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 581 by NoNukes, posted 03-29-2018 11:25 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10659
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 583 of 606 (830478)
03-31-2018 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 576 by PaulK
03-29-2018 9:46 AM


Re: Insulin as culprit regarding many diseases
Taking this over to Health 4 Life~The Science Behind Consumption since I dont want to take over Faiths plant-based thread

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 576 by PaulK, posted 03-29-2018 9:46 AM PaulK has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10659
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 584 of 606 (830480)
03-31-2018 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 558 by Granny Magda
03-27-2018 7:07 PM


Re: Insulin as culprit regarding many diseases
To those participants who value the supposed good character of their alt-med gurus, I leave you to draw your own conclusions as to what this behaviour says about Rosedale's character.

Beyond Rosedale's general bad science, I see only a string of meaningless case studies, some of which are astoundingly vague. What exactly are we meant to conclude from this little parable?

Come argue with me in my thread. I have science on my side regarding the approach to tackling Type II Diabetes, unless you can find information which disproves Dr.Jason Fung---which I doubt you will find. Just because someone sells books does not automatically qualify them as being a quack.
Unlike Mercola, Dr.Fung is an actual practicing Doctor.

Take this over here at Health 4 Life~The Science Behind Consumption and I again challenge you to refute dr.Fung. You got me a little on Rosedale, but I still believe his science is sound---apart from his ignorance in his talk which you found.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 558 by Granny Magda, posted 03-27-2018 7:07 PM Granny Magda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 587 by Granny Magda, posted 03-31-2018 11:40 AM Phat has responded

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2372
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 585 of 606 (830484)
03-31-2018 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 561 by Faith
03-27-2018 7:53 PM


Re: A couple of studies
Isn't it rather amazing that ANY got better?

I thought it was pretty standard knowledge that if the diet isn't radically changed the plaque will just go on building up even after bypass surgery.

It is pretty standard knowledge that poor diet exacerbates artery disease. The point is that a study like this really requires at two control groups; one with no intervention and one with an improved diet, just not Esselstyn's uber-strict diet. That would be the only way to test if all of Esselstyn's extreme protocols are really necessary or if just any sensible diet could have done as well.

The man who was seen by Lederman in "Forks over Knives" got off most of his meds.

None of Esselstyn's patients seem to have dropped their med's. That was not the point of the study.

Yes it wasn't a very good study, (though to be fair he didn't even really present it as a study,

*AHEM*

quote:
A Strategy to Arrest and Reverse Coronary Artery Disease: A 5-Year Longitudinal Study of a Single Physician's Practice

And by the way, if the standard doctor-prescribed diet changes hadn't already helped these people doesn't that show the inadequacy of that diet?

They weren't following any doctor-prescribed diet. That one woman was following a doughnut and gravy based diet. Diets only work if you follow them.

Or even the fact that doctors really don't know much about nutrition?

I quite agree that doctors typically don'y know enough about nutrition and that more could and should be done to integrate nutrition into everyday practise. When I say that nutrition is already part of medical science, I mean that nutrition is a standard part of our scientific understanding. How well that understanding is applied in clinical practise is a slightly different issue.

Mutate and Survive


On two occasions I have been asked, – "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" ... I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. - Charles Babbage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 561 by Faith, posted 03-27-2018 7:53 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
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