Creation

I am not sure what pictures you are referring to, but maybe it is this one. This is a 2 dimensional graphic representation of 3 dimensional space that also tries to illustrate the passage of time.It is not intended to be an image of what the Universe actually looks like. The 3 spacial dimensions of the Universe would look spherical, but the arrow of time passes in one direction, from past to future, and is impossible to illustrate in 2 dimensional artwork.The picture is just an attempt to illustrate what is happening in the Universe at different points in the progression of time. If you use a sphere to illustrate the history Universe you cannot show the passage of time. Mathematics may be able to describe what is happening in the Universe, but only those who understand the math can use it to draw a picture in their mind what is happening. The rest of us need some sort of actual picture to grasp the general idea. OK, but time is a part of the Universe that does not expand in every possible direction so if you want to show it you need something more complex than a sphere.Do you have a better picture that illustrates the history of the Universe?

Hi Tangle Give me any scientific facts you have concerning the universe beginning to exist.I am not talking about assumptions or hypothesis. You have zero information of how the universe began to exist.You do have assumptions of what took place after the universe began to exist.There is the CMBR that was discover that tells us there was a long period of intense light after the universe began to exist.If you have anything other than that please share it. I did not ask for a hypothesis I asked for scientific evidence.
A hypothesis in science is, a statement of a possible explanation for some natural phenomenonI have a hypothesis that you will not even consider yet it is just as possible as the hypothesis you believe as fact.You see I believe God created the heavens and the earth.Science presently has to teach we don't know how the universe began to exist. It did not exist but it does exist today.You say we have the CMBR that proves the BB took place.I say the CMBR is proof that there was a light period of indefinite duration in which the earth grew plants and critters which at times died and was buried by accretion and then more plants and critters died and was buried by accretion. This took place over and over again until the first layers were buried under 5 miles of dirt and rock.
This decayed matter is what produced all the oil, natural gas and coal that is found buried in the earth.I have searched for the scientific explanation for the oil without finding any satisfactory results. It would really help to know how it began to exist. That would give you a basis to build on to form an intelligent avenue to explore.But I will agree that many of the superstitious beliefs of primitive people have no basis on which to exist. But on the other hand the current crowd is not doing much better. The YEC'S really mess up what the Bible text says. Science does not do much better. Every since I read Hawking's statement about creation not requiring God I have been looking for someone to come along and give me a logical explanation of how the universe began to exist.Hawking's instanton will not work as it would require a vacuum to exist in which it could pop into existence. But if there was non existence it could not happen.Two branes banging together and producing the universe has the same problem.cavediver told me the universe just is. Great thought, but where did it come from?Since the universe is said to be a self contained unit and there is no outside of the universe the only way it could begin to exist is by beginning to exist from non existence which would be an impossibility.The only logical conclusion is that the universe was created by some outside force that most do not comprehend.God Bless,

You have absolutelty no idea what is possible and what isn't. Science is beginning to understand some of this stuff. You, like me, are incapable of understanding what we do know let alone what we might get to know. That's why you're thrashing around here not understanding the stuff you talk about. At least have the humility to shut up about stuff you have no understanding of. This has got nothing to do with logic. The stuff the people that do understand this stuff are not dealing with logic; much of it defies common sense. If and when we understand how the universe arose, it will be with physics and mathematics and only a few people will understand what is being spoken of.But not understanding everything perfectly is not an excuse for believing superstitios nonsense lacking any evidence at all.

Hi Tanypteryx Yep that is the one. There is also one that is shaped like a football. Why do you believe time only advances in a straight line in one direction only?That is probably because you believe time is a dimension.I will give an illustration using 4 quarks only. We start with 4 quarks at T=0 The single point that all the universe is crammed into something the size of a pin point.These 4 quarks begin to leave the pin point all going in a direction like a plus sign, at the speed of light. 10 minutes later they would be a long ways apart.Now are you telling me that only one of those quarks is traveling in the straight line of time. Making the other 3 not experience duration.
Now add all the other trillion trillion trillion trillions of quarks all heading in a different direction.Did time exist in only the direction of 1 quark?Just maybe time is not a dimension and is only a concept devised by mankind to measure duration between events. If that is the case it can measure the duration of each quark from the time it left the pin point. The picture is an attempt to show time as a dimension. Sure you can if you are only measuring duration between events using time. Events happen all over the place and none of them at the same place twice. Everything is in constant motion. There you go hiding behind math. Math is only figures devised by mankind. Figures don't lie but involve a man and he can make them lie. Say it all you want but time has to be able to measure duration in every conceivable direction from the moment the universe began to expand. Only in my mind and I can not put it into words or draw a picture.I only know if the BBT is correct the universe has to be a sphere that is expanding in every possible direction simultaneously.Since you believe time is a dimension of the universe and can only advance in one direction you have a problem.Time has to advance in every possible direction simultaneously.
Because no matter where you are in the universe and you look toward the pin point it all started you are looking back in time.Has the thought ever occurred to you that time might not be a dimension?My definition of time is and always has been.
Time is a concept of mankind based on the rotation of the earth in relation with the sun. That rotation taking almost 24 hours as determined by mankind. That 24 hours with each hour being divided into 60 minutes which is divided into 60 seconds per minute etc..
This measurement is then taken and used to measure the duration between events in reality.Now if you think time is a dimension please explain what it is and how you can measure it.God Bless,

Hi Tangle, I can understand what non existence is, can you?You know what existence is as you see it around you everywhere even out into the universe. Now if you can fathom none of those things existing including you, you might begin to understand what non existence is.If there is non existence that means existence does not exist.So the next time you want to tell me I don't know what is possible and not possible put you brain into gear and know the subject before you type words on the reply form.God Bless,

No, I understand what my own non-exisistence is but I don't understand what the non-existence of the universe is. And neither do you. What does nothing mean? When a physicists says that the universe is expanding, what is it expanding into? Nothing? What twaddle. You can't do any of this work using bad logic - or even good logic. It defies that sort of analysis. You have demonstrated your ignorance of the subject several times when discussing these things with people here that do have the the education to make some inroads on it. You have never formally studied big physics have you? You can't even get the beginnings of the mathematics right. You throw sciency sounding phrases around like T=0 without the first clue what it means. This stuff can only be understood using mathematics but you haven't got a mathematics qualification beyond school have you?Please explain quantum mechanics to me, using what you call logic.

In the context of my beliefs, God was, is, and always will be. In contrast to this, the Beast mentioned in the book of Revelation [i]Once was, now is not, and yet is, for those whose name is not written in the Book of Life.Non Existence can be imagined through the concept of now is not. God created existence itself and if one walks with Jesus, one walks with a perpetual certainty of existence.Relying only on human wisdom exposes us to the risk of non-existence in that we have no certainty of perpetual existence either mathematically or practically. At least that's my 2 cents.

Wow, woo pooh.

You obviously do misunderstand. There is no "forward direction". Think of the picture as an animation: The initial inflation happens quicky, then expansion continues more slowly - but the universe itself is in the shape of a sphere. That's exactly what it shows. The universe is expanding as time passes. "Forward direction" is meaningless. It does. You're misunderstanding the picture.

Hi ringo If time travels in only one direction there has to be forward direction as time can not go backwards. But then again maybe time it not what it is said to be here.If I think of the picture as an animation I would see it progressing in one direction.Now inflation is a totally different subject.By the way do you have or can you find any scientific facts that supports inflation?Sir Roger Penrose one of todays most well-respected physicist says that cosmic inflation is a "fantasy"Yes if the BBT is correct the universe is in the shape of a sphere. What picture are you referring too. Can you explain to me what time is that it can pass?
If "forward direction" is meaningless, why is it that quite often we have:
________________________________________________> arrow of time? You are the one that does not understand what the artist has presented.God Bless,

Hi Tangle Your non-existence would mean you did not exist nor had you ever existed.The non-existence of the universe would mean the same thing as the non-existence of Tangle would mean.Non-existence could not produce existence. For the universe to begin to exist would require and outside eternal energy source. An absence of any thing. The same as non-existence. That is what he believes but it would be impossible to expand into nothing.Take a balloon and put it in a bottle and put air into the balloon it will expand until it reaches the limit of space in the bottle then it will begin to come out of the bottle.Notice the balloon can only expand into existing space.But since space is supposed to only exist inside of the universe there is nothing outside the universe to expand into.If the universe is expanding it is expanding into space that is outside the universe and is unlimited in volume. T=0 is where General Relativity breaks down and is unable to give any data. Thus GR fails. What does the mathematical description of the motion and interaction of subatomic particles, concepts of quantization of energy, wave-particle duality, the uncertainty principle, and the correspondence principle have to do with understanding what non-existence is.Quantum mechanics deals with existing things not non existing things.God Bless,

Hi Phat Phat, something has to have existed eternally in the past, present, and future. This something had to have enough energy to produce everything in the universe that is seen and that is not seen.I prefer to call that something God.Had there ever been non-existence there would still be non-existence as non-existence would mean there was no energy which is required to produce the universe we observe today.The point at which the expansion of the universe began is said to contain infinite, energy and mass pilled on top of each other. Out of which all mass and energy in the universe was produced.What caused that energy and mass to exist?
If it was eternal why did it wait so long to begin to expand?
If it was not eternal how did it begin to exist. God did not create existence as He has eternal existence. There has never been such a thing as non-existence. Relying on human wisdom is on shaky footing about any subject. We have too many bias's to contend with.I have talked about no thing, an absence of anything, and non-existence and seemingly no one can grasp what either of those mean. Or they just refuse to consider the possibility that their state ever existed.The universe exists, and we exist.So the universe is eternal in existence in some form or it had a beginning to exist. If it had a beginning to exist what caused it to begin to exist when there was non-existence?God Bless,

I didn't say a single thing about what I believe. I didn't say anything about time advancing in a straight line.I simply explained that the picture is an attempt to show what has happened in the 3 spacial dimensions of the Universe since the big Bang. Was this supposed to be a question? I am not telling you anything about quarks. I have not said anything about "the straight line of time." When you keep talking about the direction of time it seems that you are the one talking about time being a dimension.The 3 spacial dimensions have "directions" but you seem to be thinking of time the same way.Time seems to be a characteristic that is built into space, but past, present and future is not a direction in space. Once again, time does not have a spacial dimension. Does time=duration?I suppose that even primitive humans noticed that everything didn't happen at once and realized that the passage of time is a feature of their world. Eventually people discovered that time must be a feature that is as real a part of the universe as all of the other features and that all those other features cannot be studied and defined without including time. How else would you measure the duration between events? Where is your picture of a sphere illustrating the spacial dimensions and the passage of time? You said "sure you can," so lets see it. What does this even mean and what does it have to do with this discussion? There you go spouting gibberish. In what way am I hiding behind math? What does that even mean?Math is a tool that can be used to describe features of the Universe and to make predictions and you just sound like frustrated child who doesn't understand what the adults are talking about. That's why math is such a great tool. Yep, so? So now you are a mind reader? Sorry, you are mistaken.My understanding is that time is a feature of the Universe and that it exists everywhere. As I already said, time is a feature of the Universe and exists everywhere. My understanding is that the Universe is the pinpoint and that there is no point that we can point our telescopes at that is the Big Bang point.Wherever we look in the Universe we are looking back in time and the further away we are looking the further back in time we are looking. So rather than searching for a point that is the Big Bang, we are looking toward the Big Bang when we look toward the boundary of the expanding sphere of the Universe. An amazing concept, huh? Yep. There you go, hiding behind rotation of the earth. I don't. I was just trying to explain why the artist made that picture look that way to try and illustrate the idea of how the Universe changes over time. No one, including the artist is saying that Universe actually looks like that.

Cobblers. Before I existed the atoms I was made of existed and after I cease to exist my atoms will exist. My atoms were there before and will be there after. The concept of no universe is the concept of something rather than nothing. Absolutely nothing. Not just empty space but not even the idea of space. Nothing. Nothing is not something we can deal with with language. And that's where your hopelessly lost aren't you? Like almost everyone on the planet you are unable to think beyond the mundane properties of what you physically experience and apply that parochial experince to stuff that is way, way beyond it.You're worse than ignorant, you think you actually understand the stuff you're talikng about but you don't have the first clue.I note that you didn't contradict my claim that you have no education in either maths or physics that would give you the right of an opinion and at least a partial chance of discussing this subject with those that have.

Time doesn't "travel", literally. It has no "direction", literally. The ones we've been talking about, the ones you referred to in Message 614, the one that Tanypteryx posted in Message 631 and you agreed in Message 634, "Yep that is the one." That just means that time can't be "rewound". What has happened can not un-happen.