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Author Topic:   Creation
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1659
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 646 of 655 (830649)
04-04-2018 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 634 by ICANT
04-02-2018 8:42 PM


Re: Bible
ICANT writes:

I will give an illustration using 4 quarks only. We start with 4 quarks at T=0 The single point that all the universe is crammed into something the size of a pin point.

How do you know there were 4 quarks at T=0? What kind of quarks? Can you describe all the properties of the quarks?

ICANT writes:

These 4 quarks begin to leave the pin point all going in a direction like a plus sign, at the speed of light. 10 minutes later they would be a long ways apart.

Why do these 4 quarks leave the pinpoint? What the heck is a direction like a plus sign? Why are they going at the speed of light? How did you measure 10 minutes?

ICANT writes:

Now add all the other trillion trillion trillion trillions of quarks all heading in a different direction.

Wait, I thought there were only 4 quarks. Where did you get a trillion trillion trillion trillions of quarks? Why are they all heading in a different direction than the 4 quarks?

What does any of this have to do with the picture?

ICANT writes:

Did time exist in only the direction of 1 quark?

How many directions are there? Can 2 quarks travel in the same direction?

ICANT writes:

Just maybe time is not a dimension and is only a concept devised by mankind to measure duration between events.

Maybe time is a feature of the Universe and mankind discovered that it can be used to measure the duration of events, just like we discovered that the speed of light can be used, with time, to measure distance in the 3 spacial dimensions. I know it scares you, but we have to use math.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 634 by ICANT, posted 04-02-2018 8:42 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 650 by ICANT, posted 04-06-2018 5:29 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5784
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 647 of 655 (830765)
04-06-2018 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 644 by Tangle
04-04-2018 3:21 PM


Re: Bible
Hi Tangle,

Tangle writes:

Cobblers. Before I existed the atoms I was made of existed and after I cease to exist my atoms will exist. My atoms were there before and will be there after. The concept of no universe is the concept of something rather than nothing. Absolutely nothing. Not just empty space but not even the idea of space. Nothing. Nothing is not something we can deal with with language.

Your atoms existed before you were born, Yes.
Did the atoms you are formed from exist eternally in the past? OR
Did they begin to exist 13.7 billion years ago when the universe began to exist?

The atoms that compose you may or may not exist eternally into the future.

But the question why is there something rather than nothing, has been pondered for a long time.

Non-existence, absolutely nothing, and nothing represent the same thing. Nothing is a compound word of 'No Thing". The meaning of which is exactly that. It would cover everything you can think of that exists today not existing.. It is no problem to deal with except we will not accept the possibility of 'No Thing'.

Tangle writes:

And that's where your hopelessly lost aren't you? Like almost everyone on the planet you are unable to think beyond the mundane properties of what you physically experience and apply that parochial experince to stuff that is way, way beyond it.

The problem is you can't accept that there is 'No Thing" outside of the universe for it to expand into.

I am not the one who believes everything is contained in the universe in which we live.

I believe that there is a infinite third heaven (universe if you prefer) in which God created our heavens and earth. So our universe could expand as much as God wanted it to expand.

Tangle writes:

I note that you didn't contradict my claim that you have no education in either maths or physics that would give you the right of an opinion and at least a partial chance of discussing this subject with those that have.

My extent in math was calculus 60 years ago. I know that numbers do not lie. But I also know that man can make numbers say what he wants them to say. Einstein's biggest blunder proves that numbers will say what you want them to..

All the physics I have studied has been in the last 10 years.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 644 by Tangle, posted 04-04-2018 3:21 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 648 by Tangle, posted 04-06-2018 2:59 PM ICANT has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5569
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 648 of 655 (830766)
04-06-2018 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 647 by ICANT
04-06-2018 2:47 PM


Re: Bible
ICANT writes:

I believe that there is a infinite third heaven (universe if you prefer) in which God created our heavens and earth. So our universe could expand as much as God wanted it to expand.

You're at liberty to believe anything at all. But what you believe about your magical being is not relevant to science's current state of knowledge of the universe.

My extent in math was calculus 60 years ago. I know that numbers do not lie. But I also know that man can make numbers say what he wants them to say. Einstein's biggest blunder proves that numbers will say what you want them to..

All the physics I have studied has been in the last 10 years.

So your maths is about the level of a 16 year old and you have no formal education at all in physics, yet you think you can challenge the greatest thinkers in their field - Nobel Prize size accademics. You believers have an ego the size of a planet.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 647 by ICANT, posted 04-06-2018 2:47 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 651 by ICANT, posted 04-06-2018 5:34 PM Tangle has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5784
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 649 of 655 (830767)
04-06-2018 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 645 by ringo
04-04-2018 3:39 PM


Re: Bible
Hi ringo,

ringo writes:


Time doesn't "travel", literally. It has no "direction", literally.

Then why did you say in Message 626

quote:
That is what the pictures are meant to show. What you see as a "forward direction" is time.

ringo writes:

That just means that time can't be "rewound". What has happened can not un-happen.

Time can be rewound. Time is a concept invented by mankind to to measure duration between events in eternity. Time is not a dimension.

You can measure length, height, and width which are dimensions.

How do you measure time if it is a dimension?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 645 by ringo, posted 04-04-2018 3:39 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 653 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-06-2018 6:07 PM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 655 by ringo, posted 04-07-2018 12:12 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5784
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 650 of 655 (830768)
04-06-2018 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 646 by Tanypteryx
04-04-2018 4:01 PM


Re: Bible
Hi Tanypteryx

Tanypteryx writes:

Wait, I thought there were only 4 quarks. Where did you get a trillion trillion trillion trillions of quarks? Why are they all heading in a different direction than the 4 quarks?

What does any of this have to do with the picture?

I used 4 for just an illustration for direction only. So you could understand that the quarks were going in different direction not as in the picture.

Then I added all the other quarks going in different directions.

Since space between objects in the universe is what is supposed to have been expanding That would mean that space would have been expanding between every quark and noting would have ever existed in the universe.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 646 by Tanypteryx, posted 04-04-2018 4:01 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5784
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 651 of 655 (830769)
04-06-2018 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 648 by Tangle
04-06-2018 2:59 PM


Re: Bible
Hi Tangle

Tangle writes:

You're at liberty to believe anything at all. But what you believe about your magical being is not relevant to science's current state of knowledge of the universe.

You mean to tell me there are no scientist that are proposing multiverses?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 648 by Tangle, posted 04-06-2018 2:59 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 652 by Tangle, posted 04-06-2018 6:05 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5569
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 652 of 655 (830770)
04-06-2018 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 651 by ICANT
04-06-2018 5:34 PM


Re: Bible
You're a blithering idiot.

God bless and goodbye.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 651 by ICANT, posted 04-06-2018 5:34 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1659
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 653 of 655 (830771)
04-06-2018 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 649 by ICANT
04-06-2018 4:49 PM


Re: Bible
ICANT writes:

Time can be rewound. Time is a concept invented by mankind to to measure duration between events in eternity. Time is not a dimension.

Can you give an example of time being rewound?

Time is a feature of the Universe "discovered by humans." We ""invented" a way to measure the duration between events. I have no idea why you added "in eternity."

ICANT writes:

You can measure length, height, and width which are dimensions.

How do you measure time if it is a dimension?

We measure all 4 of these things with artificial scales that we invented, i.e. millimeters, meters, kilometers, days, hours, minutes, seconds.

So, are length, height, and width always the same directions or does it depend on their orientation relative to the observer? Is a direction in between say, length and height another dimension.

Why is it important to you that time not be a dimension?


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 649 by ICANT, posted 04-06-2018 4:49 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7657
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 654 of 655 (830772)
04-06-2018 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 627 by ICANT
04-02-2018 1:06 PM


Re: Bible
You do know that all the pictures are nothing more than the imagination of someone as there was no one there to observe what took place.

Like Genesis. Only Genesis is not based on physics that predicts the paths of planets, satellites and light.

Therefore everything concerning the early universe is based on assumptions.

Assumptions which, if true, predict the existence of things we've seen, phenomena we have observed, anomalies we could not otherwise explain.

I can find no one who can tell me what time is.

Time is a dimension. Like all dimensions it measures a distance between two events.

Neither can they tell me how to measure time.

With a clock.

Time according to Hawking is imaginary time that goes in a vertical direction.

No. Time is time. In the early universe the geometry of time is, according to Hawking's notion, describable using complex mathematics - ie., imaginary numbers. This notion essentially resolves the singularity problem by 'smoothing' it out.

It's an interesting solution, but it isn't considered Truth. It predicts things we see, and other things we have not seen. We may observe those other predictions one day which would strengthen the idea.

It seems this assumption was made so the universe could have a beginning to exist.

Quite the opposite, it kind of makes the idea of a beginning to exist more incoherent. As you go further 'back' in time, time itself becomes increasingly space-like. That is, it takes on the properties closer to space than time - thus the notion of a beginning becomes less clear.

No I am not misunderstanding the pictures. It actually shows the universe expanding in a forward direction.

It does not show the universe expanding in every direction at the same time.

It's a diagram. 'Forwards' is time. Up and down (and depending on the diagram in and out) represent the three spatial dimensions. Thus as you proceed forwards in time, the diagram shows space expanding in all directions.

But the universe is not expanding in a time related forward direction.

It is a sphere expanding in every possible direction simultaneously.

You can make a diagram which shows the different rates of expansion of the sphere over time, using only a sphere, if you'd like. But I'd wager it'd be more difficult to understand. I can't even imagine how you'd do it.

A sphere on its own would, at best, describe the universe at a single point in time.

If you like, think of the diagram as a graph with time along the x-axis and the diameter of the sphere on the y-axis.

Science presently has to teach we don't know how the universe began to exist. It did not exist but it does exist today.

That's not what science teaches. It does not teach the universe did not exist. That may be true, but in any given theory where it is, there is something other than the universe that gives rise to the universe.

This decayed matter is what produced all the oil, natural gas and coal that is found buried in the earth.

I have searched for the scientific explanation for the oil without finding any satisfactory results.

You just said it. Biological matter of deceased animals explains the oil.

It would really help to know how it began to exist. That would give you a basis to build on to form an intelligent avenue to explore.

It's early conditions and its conditions today are the basis we have and upon which scientists are intelligently exploring avenues for the universe's earliest moments - and before that if such a thing exists.

Hawking's instanton will not work as it would require a vacuum to exist in which it could pop into existence. But if there was non existence it could not happen.

Two branes banging together and producing the universe has the same problem.

Unless braneworld is in some fashion, eternal.

cavediver told me the universe just is. Great thought, but where did it come from?

If it just is, it didn't come from - it just is.

Since the universe is said to be a self contained unit and there is no outside of the universe the only way it could begin to exist is by beginning to exist from non existence which would be an impossibility.

Or it didn't begin to exist. It just exists.

These 4 quarks begin to leave the pin point all going in a direction like a plus sign, at the speed of light. 10 minutes later they would be a long ways apart.

Now are you telling me that only one of those quarks is traveling in the straight line of time. Making the other 3 not experience duration.
Now add all the other trillion trillion trillion trillions of quarks all heading in a different direction.

No. They are all travelling through time and space.

Just maybe time is not a dimension and is only a concept devised by mankind to measure duration between events.

just as mankind invented length to measure distance between points?

I only know if the BBT is correct the universe has to be a sphere that is expanding in every possible direction simultaneously.

It could be different shapes - but a sphere is a reasonable one. Your objections are akin to someone looking at map of the world and arguing it isn't a sphere and thus trying to say that cartogrophers think it is impossible to pass down from Britain and come up in Australia. It's a two dimensional projection of a sphere.

Time has to advance in every possible direction simultaneously.

It is one dimension. So there is only two possible directions. Just like when considering length. It doesn't have to advance in both directions.

Sir Roger Penrose one of todays most well-respected physicist says that cosmic inflation is a "fantasy"

His alternative is just multiple big bang expansion events with the one we talk about today being the most recent. It's not a well-respected idea regardless of people's opinions of Penrose.

If "forward direction" is meaningless, why is it that quite often we have:
_______________________________________________> arrow of time?

That's a great question! Generally speaking physicists tend to answer by pointing to the necessary directionality of thermodynamics and entropy. But a full discussion is beyond the scope of this, apparently a 'bible' topic.

But since space is supposed to only exist inside of the universe there is nothing outside the universe to expand into.

Yes. It isn't expanding into anything.

If the universe is expanding it is expanding into space that is outside the universe and is unlimited in volume.

No, that doesn't follow from anything we know.

The problem is you can't accept that there is 'No Thing" outside of the universe for it to expand into.

I, for one, practically insist upon it!

I believe that there is a infinite third heaven (universe if you prefer) in which God created our heavens and earth. So our universe could expand as much as God wanted it to expand.

Naturally you do. There's less basis for that belief than cosmology of course. Just an anonymous author from over two millennia ago.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 627 by ICANT, posted 04-02-2018 1:06 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 14497
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 655 of 655 (830787)
04-07-2018 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 649 by ICANT
04-06-2018 4:49 PM


Re: Bible
ICANT writes:

ringo writes:

Time doesn't "travel", literally. It has no "direction", literally.


Then why did you say in Message 626
quote:
That is what the pictures are meant to show. What you see as a "forward direction" is time.

I said, or tried to say, that what you were seeing as a direction is in fact a dimension, the fourth dimension, time. Granted, it is difficult to portray and/or visualize four dimensions in a two-dimensional drawing, which is why people are trying to explain it to you. But it seems that you're not only misunderstanding the drawing; you're trying to deny the science behind it.

ICANT writes:

Time can be rewound. Time is a concept invented by mankind to to measure duration between events in eternity. Time is not a dimension.

You can measure length, height, and width which are dimensions.

How do you measure time if it is a dimension?


Ever hear of a clock? Ever see a clock go backwards?

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 649 by ICANT, posted 04-06-2018 4:49 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
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