Message 654 of 655 (830772)
04-06-2018 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 627 by ICANT
04-02-2018 1:06 PM
|You do know that all the pictures are nothing more than the imagination of someone as there was no one there to observe what took place.|
Like Genesis. Only Genesis is not based on physics that predicts the paths of planets, satellites and light.
|Therefore everything concerning the early universe is based on assumptions.|
Assumptions which, if true, predict the existence of things we've seen, phenomena we have observed, anomalies we could not otherwise explain.
|I can find no one who can tell me what time is.|
Time is a dimension. Like all dimensions it measures a distance between two events.
|Neither can they tell me how to measure time.|
With a clock.
|Time according to Hawking is imaginary time that goes in a vertical direction.|
No. Time is time. In the early universe the geometry of time is, according to Hawking's notion, describable using complex mathematics - ie., imaginary numbers. This notion essentially resolves the singularity problem by 'smoothing' it out.
It's an interesting solution, but it isn't considered Truth. It predicts things we see, and other things we have not seen. We may observe those other predictions one day which would strengthen the idea.
| It seems this assumption was made so the universe could have a beginning to exist.|
Quite the opposite, it kind of makes the idea of a beginning to exist more incoherent. As you go further 'back' in time, time itself becomes increasingly space-like. That is, it takes on the properties closer to space than time - thus the notion of a beginning becomes less clear.
|No I am not misunderstanding the pictures. It actually shows the universe expanding in a forward direction.|
It does not show the universe expanding in every direction at the same time.
It's a diagram. 'Forwards' is time. Up and down (and depending on the diagram in and out) represent the three spatial dimensions. Thus as you proceed forwards in time, the diagram shows space expanding in all directions.
|But the universe is not expanding in a time related forward direction.|
It is a sphere expanding in every possible direction simultaneously.
You can make a diagram which shows the different rates of expansion of the sphere over time, using only a sphere, if you'd like. But I'd wager it'd be more difficult to understand. I can't even imagine how you'd do it.
A sphere on its own would, at best, describe the universe at a single point in time.
If you like, think of the diagram as a graph with time along the x-axis and the diameter of the sphere on the y-axis.
|Science presently has to teach we don't know how the universe began to exist. It did not exist but it does exist today.|
That's not what science teaches. It does not teach the universe did not exist. That may be true, but in any given theory where it is, there is something other than the universe that gives rise to the universe.
|This decayed matter is what produced all the oil, natural gas and coal that is found buried in the earth.|
I have searched for the scientific explanation for the oil without finding any satisfactory results.
You just said it. Biological matter of deceased animals explains the oil.
|It would really help to know how it began to exist. That would give you a basis to build on to form an intelligent avenue to explore.|
It's early conditions and its conditions today are the basis we have and upon which scientists are intelligently exploring avenues for the universe's earliest moments - and before that if such a thing exists.
|Hawking's instanton will not work as it would require a vacuum to exist in which it could pop into existence. But if there was non existence it could not happen.|
Two branes banging together and producing the universe has the same problem.
Unless braneworld is in some fashion, eternal.
|cavediver told me the universe just is. Great thought, but where did it come from?|
If it just is, it didn't come from - it just is.
|Since the universe is said to be a self contained unit and there is no outside of the universe the only way it could begin to exist is by beginning to exist from non existence which would be an impossibility.|
Or it didn't begin to exist. It just exists.
|These 4 quarks begin to leave the pin point all going in a direction like a plus sign, at the speed of light. 10 minutes later they would be a long ways apart.|
Now are you telling me that only one of those quarks is traveling in the straight line of time. Making the other 3 not experience duration.
Now add all the other trillion trillion trillion trillions of quarks all heading in a different direction.
No. They are all travelling through time and space.
|Just maybe time is not a dimension and is only a concept devised by mankind to measure duration between events.|
just as mankind invented length to measure distance between points?
|I only know if the BBT is correct the universe has to be a sphere that is expanding in every possible direction simultaneously.|
It could be different shapes - but a sphere is a reasonable one. Your objections are akin to someone looking at map of the world and arguing it isn't a sphere and thus trying to say that cartogrophers think it is impossible to pass down from Britain and come up in Australia. It's a two dimensional projection of a sphere.
|Time has to advance in every possible direction simultaneously.|
It is one dimension. So there is only two possible directions. Just like when considering length. It doesn't have to advance in both directions.
|Sir Roger Penrose one of todays most well-respected physicist says that cosmic inflation is a "fantasy"|
His alternative is just multiple big bang expansion events with the one we talk about today being the most recent. It's not a well-respected idea regardless of people's opinions of Penrose.
|If "forward direction" is meaningless, why is it that quite often we have:|
_______________________________________________> arrow of time?
That's a great question! Generally speaking physicists tend to answer by pointing to the necessary directionality of thermodynamics and entropy. But a full discussion is beyond the scope of this, apparently a 'bible' topic.
|But since space is supposed to only exist inside of the universe there is nothing outside the universe to expand into.|
Yes. It isn't expanding into anything.
|If the universe is expanding it is expanding into space that is outside the universe and is unlimited in volume.|
No, that doesn't follow from anything we know.
|The problem is you can't accept that there is 'No Thing" outside of the universe for it to expand into.|
I, for one, practically insist upon it!
|I believe that there is a infinite third heaven (universe if you prefer) in which God created our heavens and earth. So our universe could expand as much as God wanted it to expand.|
Naturally you do. There's less basis for that belief than cosmology of course. Just an anonymous author from over two millennia ago.
|This message is a reply to:|
| ||Message 627 by ICANT, posted 04-02-2018 1:06 PM|| ||ICANT has not yet responded|